Search found 1739 matches

by jfro18
Sun May 16, 2021 5:31 pm
Forum: Mixed Faith Relationships
Topic: More than one way to Marry
Replies: 6
Views: 451

Re: More than one way to Marry

Here's an off-the-wall question. Is it possible to get a temple divorce and remain civilly married? Keep the marriage but divorce the third member (the church) from it? You CAN get a civil divorce but remain temple-married. I guess resignation or excommunication would do the same thing but I'm just...
by jfro18
Thu May 13, 2021 3:05 pm
Forum: Support
Topic: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'
Replies: 18
Views: 287

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

Yeah there is zero chance she would ever be open to a "church break" where she could put that to the test. It doesn't help that her parents and some siblings are so manipulative with her and church, but she is just not even in a spot where she could even consider it to not be true. She had asked me ...
by jfro18
Thu May 13, 2021 8:52 am
Forum: Support
Topic: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'
Replies: 18
Views: 287

Re: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

But that seems to be the experience of most members leaving the church. They have this sensation of free fall for just a moment until they hit the ground realizing that they are actually safe, going to survive and that the imagined danger was exactly that. Imagined. The fear is in their hearts and ...
by jfro18
Wed May 12, 2021 8:03 pm
Forum: Support
Topic: 'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'
Replies: 18
Views: 287

'Do you think I could ever be happy outside of the church?'

As DW and I try to come up with a plan to navigate our kid going back to in-person church and allowing me to give him "lessons" on what I've learned and why I have come to my conclusions, we of course got into an argument about the church being true and why I am nervous about sending our kid back. A...
by jfro18
Tue May 11, 2021 2:02 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses
Replies: 47
Views: 1084

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

The difference between us here and the church is that we are trying to figure out what really happened, that look behind the curtain, while the church doesn’t care what really happened, they just want to pretend that their illusion is the truth. So, while I am looking for a logical explanation for ...
by jfro18
Tue May 11, 2021 9:57 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses
Replies: 47
Views: 1084

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Did anyone actually see the plates with their physical eyes? All I have ever heard is “felt them through a cloth” or “hefted them in a box with a cover”. So, sounds to me like it wouldn’t have mattered if they looked like tin. Because if nobody actually saw them, they they didn’t need to look like ...
by jfro18
Mon May 10, 2021 2:08 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Dating the First Vision
Replies: 7
Views: 285

Re: Dating the First Vision

In one of Oliver Cowdery's letters to W. W. Phelps he mentions Joseph's age when he first saw the angel, and then in a later letter he corrects himself and states that Joseph told him to backdate the event to a year earlier. Other things, like the timing of the revival sermons also support the idea...
by jfro18
Mon May 10, 2021 9:50 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Fiona Givens and BYU
Replies: 20
Views: 622

Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Hang on a sec - apparently Fiona wasn't canned by the Maxwell folks, she just left voluntarily to "focus on her own study, writing and other personal endeavors." https://faithmatters.org/statement-from-faith-matters-on-fiona-givens/ Nothing to see here, folks, nothing to see. tenor.gif This feels l...
by jfro18
Mon May 10, 2021 8:46 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Dating the First Vision
Replies: 7
Views: 285

Re: Dating the First Vision

I believe in the past I've heard many apologists just say that it was easy to get the dates mixed up and leave it at that. The First Vision is such a mess - there's a Gospel Tangents series with church-employed historian Stephen Harper that has caused some controversy because Harper has a new book o...
by jfro18
Mon May 10, 2021 8:18 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: The Bible Vs. Joseph Smith
Replies: 3
Views: 126

Re: The Bible Vs. Joseph Smith

This would be interesting... on one hand I would imagine they'll focus on failed prophecies by Joseph and then probably problems with the BoM itself. On the other hand, a way more (IMO) persuasive argument against the BoM is to use biblical scholarship against it since the BoM pulls in the literal e...
by jfro18
Sun May 09, 2021 7:17 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses
Replies: 47
Views: 1084

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Do you think the 3 witnesses saw anything at all? Or did JS just lead them in a group hypnosis session? The 8 witnesses interest me. I wonder if JS brought out the plates in a bag or if they also were just convinced through suggestion that they were seeing something. I tend to think of it as a grou...
by jfro18
Sun May 09, 2021 7:12 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Fiona Givens and BYU
Replies: 20
Views: 622

Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

This could lead to some interesting challenges in the future. This could also drag her husband into the ring to fight. Do you think her husband will continue with his stance/position with the church since Fiona has been censured? Will both of them crawl away with their tails between their legs, or ...
by jfro18
Fri May 07, 2021 5:18 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses
Replies: 47
Views: 1084

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

wtfluff wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 9:02 pm
How many of the "witnesses" never "lost their "testimony" of the Voree Plates?
They've already checked out of the conversation at this point.

It's like when someone says "Oh David Koresh having sex with his followers was evil, but when Joseph Smith did it you know *that* was really from God."
by jfro18
Thu May 06, 2021 8:04 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses
Replies: 47
Views: 1084

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

The witnesses are certainly a problem for the Church, and not just the three, but also the eight. We have no signed document even. But they're pretty far down my list of problems. Seems an odd choice to focus on actually. I guess the rest of the problems are just so unaddressable. The witnesses are...
by jfro18
Thu May 06, 2021 11:24 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses
Replies: 47
Views: 1084

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

This makes me want so badly to find a way to get a team to develop a TV series on Joseph Smith... it would be beyond entertaining even if you stick to verifiable events/history/etc.
by jfro18
Thu May 06, 2021 7:17 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Garments and Temple recommend interview
Replies: 27
Views: 1024

Re: Garments and Temple recommend interview

I was told during the temple prep class that we were to cut out the symbols and burn them or cut them into tiny pieces kind of like an expired credit card. My garments are still in the home somewhere - I believe DW put them in a bag and has them stored somewhere... one day I need to locate them so I...
by jfro18
Wed May 05, 2021 1:44 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Garments and Temple recommend interview
Replies: 27
Views: 1024

Re: Garments and Temple recommend interview

Do they think the addendum question really changed anyone’s behavior? Of course not. I’ve been to Utah and tank tops are the new orange. Seems numerous LDS soccer moms have figured out the exercise wear loop hole. I’ll dress in my gym clothes and be comfortable ALL day and nobody will know the wise...
by jfro18
Wed May 05, 2021 11:11 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Garments and Temple recommend interview
Replies: 27
Views: 1024

Re: Garments and Temple recommend interview

I have nothing to add here except that I hate garments with a passion that is unrivaled... except I believe maybe Red Ryder.
by jfro18
Sun May 02, 2021 7:59 pm
Forum: Support
Topic: Update from the village
Replies: 7
Views: 342

Re: Update from the village

It's always good to hear these stories - even though they're not all uplifting, it's really helpful to others (thinking of myself here) that are still in the thick of the mixed faith marriage part. I'm glad to hear that you're starting to turn the corner away from the church, and I hope things go sm...
by jfro18
Sun May 02, 2021 2:07 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: What do you believe about it now?
Replies: 25
Views: 787

Re: What do you believe about it now?

With regards to the LDS church, I believe that you can prove that Joseph Smith made it up. He left his fingerprints all over everything he did with mistakes that show it had to be written after ~1826, meaning there is no chance it is ancient. With regards to beliefs beyond the church, i have no idea...