Search found 733 matches

by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 9:59 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

[Deleted because I decided I didn't really like it after all. It didn't really help.]
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 5:19 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Hey, man, this is just an online discussion group. No need to get so snide. If you feel like I’ve offended you I’m sorry. Definitely not offended. Just pointing out the extreme exaggerations you're using. It's a little like the men who cry about witch hunts, when the real witch hunts involved killi...
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 2:38 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Sounds a bit like blaming the camera guy who brought the picture into focus. That's certainly not an excuse. There are many instances of the picture being exploitative, whether it was taken for that purpose or used that way subsequently. Many oppressed minorities are well accustomed to how a pictur...
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 1:58 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

I'm not sure I am mischaracterizing it. Perhaps it has been lost in all the twists and turns of this discussion, but at the beginning part of what this discussion was about was that some black Mormons were crucifying Streeter but saying nothing about the Church that caused the problems in the first...
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 12:57 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

If they say that our voices or actions are causing them harm, we should withdraw and find better ways to support them. They get to be the primary voice to share their experience. Just wondering here. Isn't this kind of analogous to the abused spouse who is somewhat psychologically enslaved by their...
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 10:55 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

I am not cool with black Mormons directing all of their angst at Streeter and making him the target for all of the pain they feel because of what the Church did. You're mischaracterizing it. I can find no indication whatsoever that black Mormons are directing all their angst at Streeter. I haven't ...
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 10:39 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

But, many of rest of us were affected pretty significantly as well. I can remember when the ban was lifted. It was a happy day. Nothing in my previous (or future) dealings with any person of black African lineage gave me the impression they were in any way less valuable, worthy, or loved by God tha...
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 10:27 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

But we can say "the Church" is the only entity that can apologize for "the Church's" racism. That gets a bit fuzzy though. Who is "the Church"? The Q15? Russel Nelson? President Newsroom? I'll just draw a line in the sand and say" The Q15 "should" be "who" could apologize for "the Church's" racism....
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 8:45 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

I'm sorry, where did I state that anyone besides the church could apologize for the church's racism? Where did I say any of the victims should apologize for anything ? Maybe we should try a reset on this point. That might help us clarify and get going down a better path. Can we come to any agreemen...
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 8:23 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

This is a situation where Streeter's actions probably threw sand into the gears of progress. I separate that concern out from some of the other concerns. I don't believe that the ends always justify the means, so I'm not willing to just accept the end result as the only area of concern. The potenti...
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 7:57 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

I certainly found the whole situation humorous even though Streeter's apology put a sad trombone on the end of it. For a few glorious hours we had the institutional church retracting an apology they did not issue which is doubly silly. I think the LDS church breathed a sigh of relief when the perpe...
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 7:50 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Sorry, I don't see how it's me that's got things turned around: I see black people complaining that a white person made up a fake apology, yet the only people who can actually apologize for the racism are white people . There's a contradiction there. This is bewilderingly ridiculous. Who else could...
by Jeffret
Thu May 24, 2018 7:00 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Was it funny? Depends on your sense of humor and perhaps how much time has passed since the event. Could you try to explain the humor to me? I'm just not seeing it. I realize I don't always see the same humor others do. I don't really find Wacky Packages funny, but I can kind of see how some people...
by Jeffret
Wed May 23, 2018 3:58 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Guess you and I have a fundamental disagreement on what constitutes “direct impact”. By your standard, I’d argue any of the black members who are upset who were born after 1978 weren’t “directly” impacted. They weren’t discriminated against, it was all before they were even born, what does it reall...
by Jeffret
Wed May 23, 2018 2:52 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

It's a crazy situation - when I first saw the parody I thought nothing about how blacks would feel reading it just because I don't identify that way so it just didn't cross my mind. I can clearly see now why that would bring up some raw emotions only to find out it was a joke. So I totally get that...
by Jeffret
Wed May 23, 2018 2:42 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

I keep seeing statements similar to those quoted above, which I am interpreting as: Streeter didn't have the right to do what he did because he is not black. The term "right" as used here is a fuzzy concept. Legally he may have had the right. I can't see how his actions are protected by parody, sat...
by Jeffret
Wed May 23, 2018 2:29 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Not Buying It, I've read your latest response multiple times but I've still been unable to detect any way in which you've been directly impacted by the Church's racist policies or refusal to apologize. You've described ways in which you're indirectly impacted. Or ways in which you're impacted genera...
by Jeffret
Wed May 23, 2018 1:21 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Jeffret wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:17 pm
Next, are we in agreement that neither you nor I are directly impacted by the Church's actions and statements in this area? (Not to say that we aren't impacted by the Church's behavior in any number of other areas.)
Most importantly, nor is Streeter directly impacted.
by Jeffret
Wed May 23, 2018 1:17 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Let me separate one thing out. I'm not discussing whether we have a right, legally, morally, or ethically, to criticize the Church for its actions. We certainly do. While there are some criticisms of the Church that I think are unjustified I don't think that is in any way the case here. We are free ...
by Jeffret
Wed May 23, 2018 12:24 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Church apologizes for Racism!
Replies: 166
Views: 8817

Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Let me try a different tack, for those of you who think Streeter did no wrong.

What are you upset about regarding the Church in this situation? What is your stake in it?