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by Hagoth
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:53 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Being Authentic
Replies: 26
Views: 17421

Re: Being Authentic

His comment doesn't make sense to me. Was Christ not authentic? Do mormons believe that Chris was inauthentic? In my mind, if I am being Christlike then I am being authentic. That's because he's speaking in code, as LDS leaders always do. In this case, being Christlike means being obedient to the c...
by Hagoth
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:45 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Origins of Mormon Doctrine
Replies: 23
Views: 23686

Re: Origins of Mormon Doctrine

Wow... that's not a coincidence, it's just that the entire family was inspired with the same exact thoughts as so many others he borrowed from. :lol: Do we know what years those sermons/lectures were given? Would be curious to see how they lined up with Joseph's evolving theology... They all pre-da...
by Hagoth
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:46 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Origins of Mormon Doctrine
Replies: 23
Views: 23686

Origins of Mormon Doctrine

It has become increasingly evident that Joseph Smith borrowed a lot of "original" Mormon doctrine from other sources. Examples include Josephus, Jasher, Thomas Dick’s Philosophy of a Future State , Thomas Taylor’s The Six Books of Proclus on the Theology of Plato , Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary, Ge...
by Hagoth
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:20 pm
Forum: Support
Topic: We Left
Replies: 9
Views: 4376

Re: We Left

Well constructed letter. I like that you didn't give them any specific issues to fester over.
by Hagoth
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:23 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Being Authentic
Replies: 26
Views: 17421

Re: Being Authentic

Palerider wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:25 pm
I've been working this horse for about 3 years now and he's starting to do well. I decided to include it as my avatar so you guys would know I'm authentic. :roll: :)
So is that a horse, or is it a "horse?" Beautiful animal, whichever it is.
by Hagoth
Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:30 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Stone of a Greenish Caste . . .
Replies: 8
Views: 4485

Re: Stone of a Greenish Caste . . .

I'll have to check out that book. To me, there just seem to be too many people who saw some kind of physical object covered and quite a few people who handled something to have not been anything resembling plates. I think Dan Vogel makes a compelling case that they were made of tin and Joseph dislo...
by Hagoth
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:08 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Stone of a Greenish Caste . . .
Replies: 8
Views: 4485

Re: Stone of a Greenish Caste . . .

I was just reading about this in this book: https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Combinations-Evidence-Counterfeiting-1800-1847/dp/194414109X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1530122322&sr=1-1 Of course, there might be problems with the provenance of the statements, but apparently multiple witnesses made thi...
by Hagoth
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:54 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Elder Oaks B1 statement
Replies: 13
Views: 10045

Re: Elder Oaks B1 statement

This is still a frequent lesson topic in church. The story of Saul choosing to sacrifice some of the Amalekites flocks rather than kill them was presented in Gospel Doctrine just a few weeks ago... One of my favorite scriptures. Saul, rather than killing Agag, the Amalekite ruler, brought him back ...
by Hagoth
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:20 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Stone of a Greenish Caste . . .
Replies: 8
Views: 4485

Re: Stone of a Greenish Caste . . .

I think the most likely thing to consider is that Josiah Stowell was a gullible mark, like Martin Harris, who saw what he wanted to see. Joseph led him around for years almost finding treasure, only to have the guardian ghost trick them out of it at the last moment, and Stowell fell for it time afte...
by Hagoth
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:52 pm
Forum: Support
Topic: Trite and often pious TBM phrases
Replies: 39
Views: 27205

Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

One of the funniest cartoons ever was in the New Era back in the 70s. Two soldiers praying in a foxhole amidst a barrage of enemy fire. The guy praying was obviously Mormon because the caption was "...and please bless those who aren't here this time that they can be her next time."
by Hagoth
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:00 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Moses...
Replies: 30
Views: 19012

Re: Moses...

Here are a couple of specific examples of how the Bible kicks the BoM's butt for historicity: Yet... Even though the bible gets a "couple" things right, it's still no more than a bunch of urban legends passed down by oral tradition with tiny bits of historical accuracy tossed in to the mix. Really ...
by Hagoth
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:52 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Moses...
Replies: 30
Views: 19012

Re: Moses...

I've been to the ancient city of Ninevah - sort of. When I was in Mosul back in 2006, we drove up the highway between Mosul and Erbil. The ancient walls of Ninevah were still standing at that point. Someone was kind enough to put an IED right next to the gate and detonate it as our first truck drov...
by Hagoth
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:15 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Moses...
Replies: 30
Views: 19012

Re: Moses...

Here are a couple of specific examples of how the Bible kicks the BoM's butt for historicity: Metallurgy: Both books claim extensive use of metal. No one has yet produced a single example of smelting in potential BoM locations. In contrast, the evidence of metal mining and smelting in the Holy Land ...
by Hagoth
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:08 am
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Moses...
Replies: 30
Views: 19012

Re: Moses...

Adam - too much to unpack Probably comes from Mesopotamian creation myths about the emergence of civilization from the wetlands of southern Iraq. There are fragments of tales of first people living in a garden. Even one about a goddess who made her husband jealous by taking too much interest in her...
by Hagoth
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:09 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Moses...
Replies: 30
Views: 19012

Re: Moses...

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:09 pm
The bible has it almost at bad as the BOM, the most incorrect book ever written category.
But that almost covers a big gap. The Bible talks about many real people, places, and events that can be verified by other sources. BoM? Zero.
by Hagoth
Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:20 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Being Authentic
Replies: 26
Views: 17421

Re: Being Authentic

Not long ago I read a comment by a GA (can't remember who) criticizing doubters for claiming to being "so-called authentic." and expressing how he disdained that word. The message, if I remember correctly, was that you should just keep your mouth shut and continue the facade for the benefit of every...
by Hagoth
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:54 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Moses...
Replies: 30
Views: 19012

Re: Moses...

Somehow God must have erased the evidence so we can have..... Faith. You know. This seems to be a running theme with my apologist type friends. Does this constitute deception on the part of God? Isn't he intentionally making it look like something happened that didn't really happen? How is this rec...
by Hagoth
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:50 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Moses...
Replies: 30
Views: 19012

Re: Moses...

So, they took stories about slaves (no more than a handful) escaping Egypt... Which did happen in small groups at the time of the attack of the Sea Peoples, which started in the time of Ramses II, so it's easy to see how such a story could persist. For those who may be interested. Here is a good bo...
by Hagoth
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:54 pm
Forum: Doctrinal Discussion
Topic: Moses...
Replies: 30
Views: 19012

Re: Moses...

Yeah, I've heard that but it seems like blowing smoke. It doesn't make a lot of sense that they couldn't manage to arrive anywhere until those guys died off. They could just as well die at the destination as on the journey. There are so many other inconsistencies with this story that make it sound l...