.

[ed123]

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[Red Ryder]

Anyhow, my thought experiments will not care what you currently believe. They will only use your mind to come to a logical conclusion based on a certain assumption. It doesn't matter that you believe in that assumption. It only matters that you follow the experiment mentally to its conclusion, and see what the outcome is. This doesn't make it true. It only makes it the likely truth given the core assumption is true. If it isn't in the real world, it doesn't matter. It DOES matter to my research, even if it doesn't matter to you in your personal beliefs. Do you want apologetics to be more transparent and honest? Then I ask you to help. WTF, you say? I really am serious. I need help, and I am not shy to ask for it. And other apologists won't, so I turn to who I can. This employs your mind to use your thought processes without your beliefs or lack thereof getting in the way, so that you can help me think through my projects.

Let’s begin. What’s thought experiment #1?

[ed123]

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[Red Ryder]

While we wait in anticipation, what are your thoughts on the similarities between Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs, and Denver Snuffer?

[ed123]

.

[Corsair]

Anyhow, my thought experiments will not care what you currently believe. They will only use your mind to come to a logical conclusion based on a certain assumption. It doesn't matter that you believe in that assumption. It only matters that you follow the experiment mentally to its conclusion, and see what the outcome is. This doesn't make it true. It only makes it the likely truth given the core assumption is true. If it isn't in the real world, it doesn't matter. It DOES matter to my research, even if it doesn't matter to you in your personal beliefs.

Your experiment sounds intriguing. I'm not optimistic about it, but I can happily follow your line of reasoning and see where it leads. It's unfortunate that there seems to be no way for competing testimonies from the Holy Spirit to resolve different conclusions.

Have you ever spoken with the guy who runs the Church is True website? He seems to have a similar mindset where he has a lot of problems with most apologetic answers and makes a sincere case for LDS beliefs based on other lines of reasoning. He actually came by this forum a few years ago and I had some email correspondence with him. I reviewed some of his early pages and pointed out where he might present a better case for his beliefs. He certainly has a much friendlier apologetic tone than many of the pages within FairMormon.

[ed123]

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[Hagoth]

Yes, I understand the implication of what I just said very well, and I am not looking necessarily for your acceptance of my Holy Ghost as the real one, nor do I expect necessarily that you believe anyone's Holy Ghost is real. Thank you.

This inevitably comes down to a "my Holy Ghost is bigger than your Holy Ghost" pissing contest, or, as members of many religions like to state it, your Holy Ghost is either the devil or self delusion. If you accept that there are many Holy Ghosts that are not real you might as well take it one tiny step further and consider that either all Holy Ghosts are real or all Holy Ghosts are imaginary. Either of those propositions makes for a much stronger argument, since there is no way of verifying that people of other religions who are obviously just as moved by their Holy Ghost (in fact often moreso than most iPad-viewing-nodding-off-bored-to-death-in-church Mormons) are either fooled or faking it.

[ed123]

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[Random]

While we wait in anticipation, what are your thoughts on the similarities between Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs, and Denver Snuffer?

I can tell you he is not a Denver Snuffer believer. And Warren Jeffs? I've only seen ed post on LDSFF. I don't know him in real life, but I'm sure he'd gag at the thought of thinking WJ was any sort of good man.

[w2mz]

They will only use your mind to come to a logical conclusion based on a certain assumption.

If you have already predetermined your conclusion and assumptions, it’s not much of an experiment. It’s more like just following a checklist.

I think I see what you’re trying to accomplish, but to me it seems like the rocking horse winner. A ton of mental energy consumed, but no willingness or purpose to move an inch.

Good luck.

[ed123]

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[w2mz]

Fair enough. You gotta do you. You can know/believe anything you want.

Still feels like a game of “Punch me in the stomach as hard as you can to see how tough I am” though.

When we’re done, let’s play the opposite game where you, as a true believer, pretend to know absolutely that Joseph WAS a fraud while we hone our “anti” skills by stacking up evidence, facts, and our feelings and you tell us how we can be even more convinced he made it up like other cult leaders from John Mathias to Jim Jones.

Actually, never mind. Both experiments are pointless to me.

[ed123]

Fair enough. You gotta do you. You can know/believe anything you want.

Still feels like a game of “Punch me in the stomach as hard as you can to see how tough I am” though.

When we’re done, let’s play the opposite game where you, as a true believer, pretend to know absolutely that Joseph WAS a fraud while we hone our “anti” skills by stacking up evidence, facts, and our feelings and you tell us how we can be even more convinced he made it up like other cult leaders from John Mathias to Jim Jones.

Actually, never mind. Both experiments are pointless to me.

You can be a jerk about it, or you can be a friendly person. Which will it be?

[Evil_Bert]

This whole thing feels like you are here to convince us that we are wrong and we should just trust you because you have it all figured out. I am with w2mz on this. Pointless.

[ed123]

This whole thing feels like you are here to convince us that we are wrong and we should just trust you because you have it all figured out. I am with w2mz on this. Pointless.

Yes, indeed, because of the lack of willingness on all of your parts, it is indeed pointless, not because I wasn't serious about what I was doing here.