So Happy the Board is BACK!

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Charlotte
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by Charlotte » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:07 am

Thanks for detailing all of this. I would love to know how your bishop's view of things colors the instruction in your ward - whether the essays are discussed, whether non-literal views (of the BoM in particular) are tolerated, etc.

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:44 am

Wow you have a great Bishop. Mine just ranted about how he has a friend with an "ANTI" brother and I think he has zero ability to empathize with our situation. But he still let me baptize and confirm my kid, so he's still a good guy in my book. That could all change someday unfortunately.

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SeeNoEvil
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by SeeNoEvil » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:56 am

Guy wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:34 am
SeeNoEvil wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:11 am
Welcome back! I remember you from the old NOM. Always great to hear a familiar voice!
Guy wrote: So I started looking at the church in a new light. I still don't believe that the Church is the one and only path to the CK. I still don't believe in the CK. I still don't believe in God. But I do believe in people! And I do know that many of the people that attend our Ward are GOOD people - including my DW and DS! So I've started attending SM again - for my family! And it's been good! It makes my wife very happy, and everyone knows that a happy wife makes for a happy life!!! :-)
I too see the church in a different light. Once the anger subsided I realized the church is a building where good people come together. Hindsight tells me maybe I could have found a middle way to make it work and still maintain my friends and family ties but I will never know now I have resigned. I am happy to hear you are finding your way. The meeting with your bishop sounds promising. Please return and report! again.... welcome back!
This was interesting. The Bishop shared a story of a close friend who also went through a crisis in faith like most of us and in the end had his name removed from the records of the Church. But after many years discovered he was missing something in his life that only the Church - or the people of his Ward - provided. So he is back attending Church again, but remains steadfast a non-believer.
When I hear stories like this I think maybe I missed something, maybe I could go back but know it will never work for me. There was a point in my life though while treading in the NOM waters that I pondered over what would it take to get me back? How I could make it work and be happy yet knowing what I know? There really is no way for me to go back unless the church admits the wrong and makes some drastic changes and we all know that will never happen. Simply put I cannot support a church built on lies and abuse. Sounds like you hit the bishop lottery though. I had a similar conversation with my bishop about 4 years ago. He was new on the job and had just received a letter from his missionary son telling him he no longer believed. He had done his homework and now knew the whole story. It was nice to know I wasn't alone and would be there if I needed him.
"Every event that has taken place in this universe has led you to this moment.
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown

"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57

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Guy
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by Guy » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:25 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:38 am
Guy wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:30 am
wtfluff wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:26 am


Curious. So does he believe that because he "looks for the good/positive" in the church, that the bad/negative parts of the church don't exist?
No. He understands there are still problems. And even now, as a believer and as a bishop, at times he struggles with those things.

The one point that I got from him is that he still believes in God, and still believes we all will one day be with God in the eternities. And because of that, for him the Church is the best place for him to practice that belief, even though the Church has its imperfections. Actually, I should correct that... even though the Leadership (past or present - but mostly past) has had their imperfections.
So I guess the next question is: Does the positive outweigh the negative? For me it doesn't. I'd guess people like your bishop view it the opposite. (And I guess I need to be OK with that, though I probably never will...)
yeah, this is one of those areas where it just depends on the person. When I first stopped believing, I felt the same way, that there was just to much negative. But as time has passed for me, the negative is not as compelling as the good people and friends of the ward. I'll never believe again, but the negative no longer stops me from attending once in a while.
Happy Dissenter :D

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Guy
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by Guy » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:38 pm

SeeNoEvil wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:56 am
Guy wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:34 am
SeeNoEvil wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:11 am
Welcome back! I remember you from the old NOM. Always great to hear a familiar voice!

I too see the church in a different light. Once the anger subsided I realized the church is a building where good people come together. Hindsight tells me maybe I could have found a middle way to make it work and still maintain my friends and family ties but I will never know now I have resigned. I am happy to hear you are finding your way. The meeting with your bishop sounds promising. Please return and report! again.... welcome back!
This was interesting. The Bishop shared a story of a close friend who also went through a crisis in faith like most of us and in the end had his name removed from the records of the Church. But after many years discovered he was missing something in his life that only the Church - or the people of his Ward - provided. So he is back attending Church again, but remains steadfast a non-believer.
When I hear stories like this I think maybe I missed something, maybe I could go back but know it will never work for me. There was a point in my life though while treading in the NOM waters that I pondered over what would it take to get me back? How I could make it work and be happy yet knowing what I know? There really is no way for me to go back unless the church admits the wrong and makes some drastic changes and we all know that will never happen. Simply put I cannot support a church built on lies and abuse. Sounds like you hit the bishop lottery though. I had a similar conversation with my bishop about 4 years ago. He was new on the job and had just received a letter from his missionary son telling him he no longer believed. He had done his homework and now knew the whole story. It was nice to know I wasn't alone and would be there if I needed him.
I was very much like this as well. For the first half a dozen years or so, there was no way I was going to go back because of the lies and the inability of the Church's leaders to admit mistakes. But things have changed for me. The anger is no longer there, and I do enjoy visiting with the People of the Ward. So a couple of times a month I go to Sacrement with the family, nothing more. I cringe on occasion listening to the talks, but for the most part it's not too bad now.
Happy Dissenter :D

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Ghost
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by Ghost » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:24 am

It's always interesting to hear about people who have returned to belief after going through a thorough crisis of faith. I suppose that in most cases, such people stopped their questioning at the level of Mormonism, rather than really questioning Christianity and theism in general. It sounds as if that was the case for this bishop.

But who knows? Descartes managed to regain his Christian belief after doubting everything. Maybe he would have done the same thing as a Mormon. :)

Thanks for sharing this.

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Guy
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by Guy » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:06 am

Ghost wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:24 am
It's always interesting to hear about people who have returned to belief after going through a thorough crisis of faith. I suppose that in most cases, such people stopped their questioning at the level of Mormonism, rather than really questioning Christianity and theism in general. It sounds as if that was the case for this bishop.

But who knows? Descartes managed to regain his Christian belief after doubting everything. Maybe he would have done the same thing as a Mormon. :)

Thanks for sharing this.
Interesting point Ghost. I do think that the Bishop does do some mental gymnastics to make it work for him. I think the difference between him and other TBM's is he recognizes his own mental gymnastics, while others do not. But that is only in regard to Mormonism. He fully accepts that there is a God and a Plan of Salvation; and he chooses Mormonism as the vehicle in which he can practice that belief.
Happy Dissenter :D

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No Tof
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by No Tof » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:13 am

Such an interesting thread.

First of all, I'd like to welcome you back to the fold and say how much I have enjoyed hearing more of your story. I find it helpful to see how many things are common amongst us in the NOM world. I relate to much of what you have and are experiencing. The stages of grief, the anger phase, indifference and apathy and finally to a reawakening of seeing some good in a flawed/sometimes even damaging system.

I postulate that many if not most of us would have moved on to other communities of friends outside of the church but due to our spousal connection we tend to hold to this one. For one thing, we speak the language, and know the customs even if we don't really accept the underlying dogma of why it's there. Of course you mention the good people of the church and I agree that they are good. Just as good as any other group of good folk. For me I find good groups in other places too. Pubs, parks, not to mentions cyber-acquaintances in places like this. BUT the old connections with people in our ward (although many are assigned friendships) do have a draw.

It sounds like your bishop has many more stories to tell about why he is still IN. I wonder if his wife gave him a strong motivation to stay? or was it truly a personal connection?

Only because my wife is in like a rusty bolt, I am trying to make peace in my mind with the messiness in the corp and trying to be civil in all my words and even thoughts while deciding to attend once in a while to be with DW. We will see how it goes. Looking forward to sharing some insights about this new phase.

Thanks again for distilling to print some of these feelings I imagine some of us feel.
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.
Rumi

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Corsair
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by Corsair » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:24 am

No Tof wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:13 am
I postulate that many if not most of us would have moved on to other communities of friends outside of the church but due to our spousal connection we tend to hold to this one. For one thing, we speak the language, and know the customs even if we don't really accept the underlying dogma of why it's there. Of course you mention the good people of the church and I agree that they are good. Just as good as any other group of good folk. For me I find good groups in other places too. Pubs, parks, not to mentions cyber-acquaintances in places like this. BUT the old connections with people in our ward (although many are assigned friendships) do have a draw.
This is a compelling idea. I can admit to myself that if my wife suddenly decided to leave Mormonism I would happily follow her. But my dear wife remains a believer so it has been relatively easy to stay involved with my local ward with lots of friends within the congregation. This is a draw for me.

The social connections in the church are more compelling for me personally than the doctrinal framework. The institutional LDS church has systematically backed away from really interesting doctrine towards a bland Protestantism that clings to the idea of "one, true chuch with priesthood authority". Members are encouraged to attend the temple regularly, but are not really encouraged to publicly discover and share new religious insights form temple worship.

Mormonism is really kind of boring for me. I am far more interested in who will get a DefCon Black Badge this year and the amazing feats of hacking that led to such an award. But anyone who stays within the LDS church has to find something compelling about it. I have a wife and friends who are fully in. I have an apologist friend who finds the doctrine eternally persuasive. Guy's bishop seems to have found something that drives him. John Dehlin has an interest in helping people find a place.

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Guy
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by Guy » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:41 pm

No Tof wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:13 am
.... For one thing, we speak the language, and know the customs even if we don't really accept the underlying dogma of why it's there. ....
Like Corsair, I found your post very compelling No Tof! Specially the line above.

The dogma is dead to me: that includes the dogma of all religions, but especially of Mormonism because it is what I am most familiar with. Which is why I still cringe on occasion when I do attend, because I see that the dogma is still alive and well. But at the same time I still have hope, because I honestly believe that the younger generation is starting to push back against the dogma, and I do believe that as time passes we will see positive change in the Church. I hold out hope for this because my family is still caught up in it all, and for their sake I want to see positive change take place!
Happy Dissenter :D

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Newme
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Re: So Happy the Board is BACK!

Post by Newme » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:59 pm

Guy wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:41 pm
No Tof wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:13 am
.... For one thing, we speak the language, and know the customs even if we don't really accept the underlying dogma of why it's there. ....
Like Corsair, I found your post very compelling No Tof! Specially the line above.

The dogma is dead to me: that includes the dogma of all religions, but especially of Mormonism because it is what I am most familiar with. Which is why I still cringe on occasion when I do attend, because I see that the dogma is still alive and well. But at the same time I still have hope, because I honestly believe that the younger generation is starting to push back against the dogma, and I do believe that as time passes we will see positive change in the Church. I hold out hope for this because my family is still caught up in it all, and for their sake I want to see positive change take place!
Hi, a while back on the old NOM, someone explained how he felt a need to try to help people in the church - the old "every member a missionary" but this time - a NOM missionary. :lol: I feel this somewhat - especially when I see people struggling and suffering with excessive shame or financial burdens.

I admire your ability to keep a focus on the good people in the church, while being aware of the negative aspects.
When I've been hurt, it's most difficult to keep focused on the good - but if I think about it from another perspective, even those who have hurt me, probably meant well - and are struggling with their own personal hells that cause them to project their pain - all unknowingly. I remember how horrible I felt sometimes - and the worst thing was that I felt unable to realize the source or cause because questioning church teachings was a big no-no. It's a trap that I'm glad I'm no longer in - at least not mentally.

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