New to NOM. Need help.

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Idontknowanymore
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New to NOM. Need help.

Post by Idontknowanymore » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:08 pm

Hi everyone. I don't know where to start...

I have seriously been struggling with my testimony for the last 18 months or so. My struggles have gradually progressed to the point where I completely dread everything that has anything to do with the church. With a wife, four kids, and one on the way I have so much obligation and pressure to have my entire life completely intertwined in the church but I just want to be free. When my wife suggests we read scriptures or pray or go to the temple I just want to die. What I really want to say is "that sounds horrible". But I cant.

I wish I could stop going every Sunday but I'm afraid of what would happen to my family. I.E. social outcasts, disowned by family, looked down upon by coworkers etc.

I read the CES letter and was kind of blown away by it. At this point I am basically hanging on by fear. Fear of what will happen to me if I leave the church and then it turns out to be true. And fear of death if it isn't. If the church isn't true then what happens to us when we die? If there isn't an afterlife then this life is totally, completely, and utterly pointless. If there isn't life after death then it doesn't matter whether a person is a philanthropist or a pedofile. How does one reconcile this???? Where do people find the will to continue life without religion?

Thanks to anyone who replies.

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Hermey
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by Hermey » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:24 pm

Welcome! Now, sit down, relax, and breathe. You're gonna be okay.

Get online and order this book. It'll help. Read it before you do much else. You need to make sense of and unwind twenty or thirty years of indoctrination.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:28 pm

It's a sucky awful place to be, feeling trapped and repressed! We all empathize deeply with your situation and you are among friends here. It sounds like you may have reached a point where you can at least free yourself mentally. By that I mean you are near the point of not believing all the BS anymore? For me that was a point of mental freedom, even though I still had to attend and jump through all the hoops for my family. What helped me was to slough off all the guilt, get rid of the angel and devil on my shoulder, see the church and life long religion for what it was. I was free to explore other thoughts here on NOM, online and think about life and science and things that might have been taboo. Also, outside the home and church, I lived my life the way I wanted. I had a beer once in a while with friends at work and talked often with friends and family who had left the church.

It's really difficult when you have little kids and a believing spouse. Unless you can get your DW on the same path you'll likely need to tread the wine press for a while. Has she shown any doubts or gripes about the church?

The three hour block can be brutal when you don't drink the koolaid anymore. I would try to make it entertaining or just read alternative things on my phone. I would also look for opportunities to take a two day weekend, short trips with the family in the great outdoors. That might mean you have to get out of callings you are tied down with and hold your ground with your local leaders on anything else new and heavy. That might mean you need to express some concerns to local leaders, not enough to set off red flags but enough to cause concerns about putting you into any heavy positions in the Stake or Ward. You'll find help here on NOM to navigate all these things. So welcome and feel free to take off your tie and unload!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Corsair
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by Corsair » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:38 pm

This is a tough situation and we all acknowledge the pain you are going through. Sunday School does a very poor job of preparing us Mormons for a serious re-examination of faith. I want to assure you that you are not the crazy person in this relationship. It's not that the LDS church is bad or evil, but it certainly doesn't know what to do when people ask sticky questions.

I don't know where you live, but if it's in the Phoenix area, I would love to go to lunch with you and reassure you that there is definitely a way forward. By some coincidence, I certainly match some of your situation. My dear wife is a full believer and I do have four children.

Seriously, if you would like to talk, send me a PM and I you are welcome to call me. I wish I had someone to talk with when I first questioned the LDS church.

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Emower
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by Emower » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:18 pm

Oh man, I am glad you found this place. My wife tells me she feels this board is antagonistic towards belief, but there are people here who have great advice, great experiences, and it is a place of friendship. Welcome.
Fear of what will happen to me if I leave the church and then it turns out to be true.
Nobody here believes in a God that punishes you for following what you think is true. The church and people within the church does believe in that God. But cmon, go molest some 14 year olds, pull of a few cons stealing people's life savings, order the murder of a bunch of people and you will still be in some pretty "righteous" company. I wouldnt worry about your standing with God over leaving a church that has pulled the kind of crap the Mormon church has pulled.
If there isn't an afterlife then this life is totally, completely, and utterly pointless. If there isn't life after death then it doesn't matter whether a person is a philanthropist or a pedofile.
I totally disagree. Leaving the church has filled my life with more meaning then I ever had within the chapel/temple walls. Free up your thinking, take a step back and like Rubin said, let go of the guilt. When you do, meaning will come. Dont expect to have the same meaning, but you will get some meaning. I am not an atheist, but I do not believe in a conventional God anymore. Most of us here would identify as some sort of agnostic. There are a bunch of different ways of classifying agnostics. Take a look at some of them. There is great beauty and wonder in not "knowing."
Where do people find the will to continue life without religion?
Whats the alternative? Commit suicide because the church lied to you or maybe Joseph did not see God? Like I said above, once you take a step back, you will find reasons. You may find at least 5 of them.


Bottom line, your life sucks right now. It wont always suck and you dont have to live with the fear. Tell us more about your family situation. I think it is usually better to let your spouse know sooner rather than later what is going on with you.

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Linked
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by Linked » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:42 pm

Welcome to NOM! I hope you can find some peace here, or at least some relief from the existential crisis you are in. Many here are going through something similar at various places on the road. Everyone's journey is different, but there are often many similarities. trophywife26.2 had a good thread that I thought touched on some of your concerns: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1520.
Idontknowanymore wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:08 pm
I have seriously been struggling with my testimony for the last 18 months or so. My struggles have gradually progressed to the point where I completely dread everything that has anything to do with the church. With a wife, four kids, and one on the way I have so much obligation and pressure to have my entire life completely intertwined in the church but I just want to be free. When my wife suggests we read scriptures or pray or go to the temple I just want to die. What I really want to say is "that sounds horrible". But I cant.
I'm with you on wanting to do anything but the church stuff. And I always used to feel a little bad that I didn't want to do it, because I always considered that "good", so if I don't want to do it, I must be "bad". And that is hard to retrain. It sounds like you are pretty far down your disaffection path. If there is any way for you to bring your wife into this gently then try to. My wife found out I had not believed in God for 2 years when I left an email up and she felt very betrayed that I was confiding in someone else and not in her. There were reasons I wasn't confiding in her, and perhaps the same for you and your DW. But if you can share the journey with her, the earlier the better.
Idontknowanymore wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:08 pm
I wish I could stop going every Sunday but I'm afraid of what would happen to my family. I.E. social outcasts, disowned by family, looked down upon by coworkers etc.
These are very valid concerns. At a minimum your relationship with TBM siblings and parents will change if they know. Your relationship with your TBM wife will likely be strained, at least for a little while. When you don't wear garments you will always be aware of who is around and who you don't want to know. Supposedly that stage can pass, though it hasn't yet for me.
Idontknowanymore wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:08 pm
I read the CES letter and was kind of blown away by it. At this point I am basically hanging on by fear. Fear of what will happen to me if I leave the church and then it turns out to be true. And fear of death if it isn't. If the church isn't true then what happens to us when we die? If there isn't an afterlife then this life is totally, completely, and utterly pointless. If there isn't life after death then it doesn't matter whether a person is a philanthropist or a pedofile. How does one reconcile this???? Where do people find the will to continue life without religion?
You have stepped from Knowing everything to not being sure of anything. It is jarring and scary. But it can also be very freeing. You get to decide what you believe now, you are freeing yourself from the indoctrination of the church and you can find what you think the purpose of your life is! Death is a great unknown, but you can pick what you want your life to mean if there is no assigned purpose.

When I told my brother I didn't believe in the church he looked at me funny. I asked him what that look was for. He said that he was wondering what I was doing still staying with my wife and kids, and trying to do good. He thought I should be out doing hookers and blow. But I have found that losing my belief doesn't mean immediately losing my moral convictions, or my feelings for the people in my life. Religion is not necessary to find meaning in life.

Hang in there IDKA!
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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GoodBoy
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by GoodBoy » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:48 pm

I recommend that you have a heart-to-heart with your wife to tell her where you are. Make sure that she knows that you are still committed to your relationship (if you are) since that will be her #1 fear, and make sure to tell her that you want to allow her the freedom to believe as she wishes. I think you ought to read parts of the CES letter with her and explain that truth has nothing to fear from investigation. (Why should you have to try to believe something that is obviously true?)

It kind of sucks to be you right now. I've been through it. Sorry.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:19 pm

IDKA - I want to backup more of what Emower said about your specific concerns with the big life questions. It was a big bunch of painful cogdis for me and most others here to go from knowing what your purpose of life is to "WTF? This was all BS!? It's more than a big kick right to the spiritual balls! It hits you in every fiber of your soul and body.

When I started talking to friends who had left I would often ask them where they landed postMO. It was disconcerting to me at the time that most said they just didn't know if there was a God or not or if there was life after death. It's a big unknown and scary place to consider being in after you were plugged into the Matrix (yup, you need to watch that movie if you have not, especially the part where Morpheus apologizes to Neo for unplugging him from it as an adult, because it's super stressful and even potentially fatal to an adult mind.) Now, with all that said, let me assure you that landing in the big unknown is really okay and in fact I've never been happier in my life! I know that's hard to accept and think about right now, but there are many of us here that are in that place and it's really okay.

I would put myself into the agnostic realm, but more toward the could be atheist place too. There's no more absolutes when it comes to the philosophies of men. I gravitated toward science and I'm loving it because it's not jaded by anymore religion or pseudo science crap. I'm free to explore wherever I want. I still have altruistic feelings toward my fellow humans; in fact, those feelings are also no longer burdened with the religious BS of working out my salvation. I can be nice and kind just because and not because it's marked in some imaginary book in a made up unknown place. My god is not a white-haired old man that tells a prophet that some of his kids are more special than others. My god is somewhere beyond the big bang of this universe and may or may not exist and he/she/it does not meddle in my life.

Not knowing your purpose in life is really okay, but it does take a while to get there and be okay with that. The reward is your mind is free from guilt and fear and you can just live! If there is life after death and some being tells me the Mormon's were right then I'm going to be very angry and I will certainly not want to worship that being because he gave me a brain that I used to reason out the BS I was indoctrinated with as a kid. Once you pull on the thread of the LDS sweater, it quick unravels and you find out you were duped. That of itself is hard to deal with emotionally, but you are not alone and not stupid. People are deceived every day by religion, politics and other crap that human affect on each other. We are emotional creatures and it often rules us.

I also offer you the same as Corsair. I'm in the SLC area and am available to talk anytime, just shoot me a DM. I have several friends who have gone through the same thing, including one who still attends with a TBM spouse and kids, and has been navigating this path for a few years now.

Bottom line bro - life is totally worth living and you can yet find greater happiness than you have ever known by escaping the prison you are trapped in. I was lucky my DW finally found her way out and we are together and happier than we've ever been. Others here are still struggling with the family and spouse situation.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Red Ryder
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:53 pm

Welcome to crazy town!

My advice has changed over the years. At first I thought it was a great idea to hide my disaffection. So I did. I was afraid it would lead to divorce. So I spent the last 12 years unraveling each layer until I found my place between the wood gym floorboards. Still married to a TBM wife. So here's my advice:

1. Read good boys post above. Have the talk with your wife.

2. Set boundaries and map out where you ultimately want to be. Morals, values, in another church, etc.

3. Set out a timeline preferably a year.

4. Fade from Internet Mormonism as fast as possible. It's extremely addicting and can quickly replace your current brand of Mormonism. Over time you'll find you spend more time reading church history, the bloggernacle, podcasts, NOM/exmo than time spent doing mormon stuff.

5. Spend your time developing a new life with new hobbies and relationships. Bonus if you can make money at it.

6. Enjoy picking out your OWN underwear. There's unlimited options and colors.

7. Don't be afraid to get divorced. Life will go on and time will heal. I'd rather have 10 years of post Mormonism than 10 years of mixed faith bullsh*t and than a divorce. Know when to call it quits.

8. Life is short. Not knowing what comes next is peaceful. You'll know what I mean when you get there. ;)

9. It's ok to laugh at yourself. Yes, you really did wear funny underwear and reported wearing it back to your religious leaders. Kind of weird. Kind of funny.

10. Love wins
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Ghost
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by Ghost » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:16 pm

Welcome to the forums. As others have said, you will find many here who have gone through a similar process and can offer helpful advice based on experience.

One thing that might be helpful is to consider that nothing has changed about nature of reality as you have come to question your assumptions about life. Only your perspective has changed. There's not necessarily any rush to change your behavior as you decide what your approach should be, and if you have taken a while to reach the point you are at now, you can't expect others around you to quickly reach the same point without going through a similar process.

It might also help to consider what religion is for you. It's easy when discovering surprising things to reduce your faith tradition entirely to a set of truth claims to be verified or falsified. But there are also community, structure, and identity aspects that may not be easy or even desirable to cast off, at least while you are still not sure where you might want to land ultimately.

I can definitely sympathize with your anxiety in learning that there does not seem to be any inherent meaning in the universe. I don't know that you reconcile this as much as get used to the idea. I've been at this transition thing for several years now, and this is still something I think about a lot. But again, although you have to make your own meaning, that's really what you've done all along anyway without realizing it. You just have more options now, for better or for worse.

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oliver_denom
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by oliver_denom » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:13 pm

You really put your finger on it when you wrote about fear. Those feelings play a huge role in the Mormon faith, and it's only now that you can fully appreciate just how much. If you think back, they've always been there but were kept at bay through busy work, a cycle of repentance, distraction, and mistaking them for feelings of shame. A lot of the church program is focused on first instilling these fears, and second providing relief for the ailment they themselves have caused.

If I were to make a suggestion, then it would be too slow down and fully experience everything you're afraid of. Don't distract yourself or pretend you don't feel theses things, let them completely wash over you. This is just a first step, not a permanent condition. Once you've gained perspective and have sublimated your fear, then take another step. You're in control of what you do, and the church only has the power you give to it.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

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No Tof
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by No Tof » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:26 am

Welcome.

Good advice from the wise ones on this forum.

I (as one of the less wise) might add that it is a long often troubling path. If possible,find a sympathetic person in real life to safely share your thoughts with. NOM is a great place to be but a face to face conversation, will help a lot.

If you're north of 49' pm
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.
Rumi

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Mormorrisey
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:27 am

No Tof wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:26 am
Welcome.

Good advice from the wise ones on this forum.

I (as one of the less wise) might add that it is a long often troubling path. If possible,find a sympathetic person in real life to safely share your thoughts with. NOM is a great place to be but a face to face conversation, will help a lot.

If you're north of 49' pm
Ditto for me on the PM, especially if you are north of the 49, but to the east. No Tof has the west covered.

But just reading how others have dealt with similar issues is immensely helpful. I was a lurker for months before I needed to vent. Lots of pent up emotions with faith transitions.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:44 am

Idontknowanymore wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:08 pm
At this point I am basically hanging on by fear. Fear of what will happen to me if I leave the church and then it turns out to be true. And fear of death if it isn't. If the church isn't true then what happens to us when we die? If there isn't an afterlife then this life is totally, completely, and utterly pointless. If there isn't life after death then it doesn't matter whether a person is a philanthropist or a pedofile. How does one reconcile this???? Where do people find the will to continue life without religion?
My friend, I don't think you really believe this. This is your fear speaking. Try to keep in mind and take comfort from the thought that whatever the truth is, only your perception and understanding have changed. The concrete facts of reality now are the same as they ever were. The love you have for people in your life, your friendships and the things you enjoy are still important and meaningful. How you live your life and how you treat people does matter. If there's no heaven or hell, and nothing after this life, still the impact you have had on the lives of your children will always matter.

My heart aches for you; this is such a difficult thing to go through. A lot of us panicked when we first entertained the thought that the church wasn't true. You will get through the fear. You've gotten many invitations in this thread to reach out -- most of us are here because it's so helpful to be able to talk to those who've gone through this or are going through it now. Please come back and let us know how you are doing.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by MerrieMiss » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:24 pm

Welcome. There's always great support here and good advice. It really helps to know there are others who are experiencing or have lived what you are living now. As someone who is still, after many years, not completely honest with my husband about my non-belief in church, I will say this - come clean as early as possible. It only gets more difficult. That said, there are some ways more gentle than others to break the news. You might find good info on that on some threads here. If you feel comfortable, you may even write a post asking for advice.
Idontknowanymore wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:08 pm
At this point I am basically hanging on by fear. Fear of what will happen to me if I leave the church and then it turns out to be true. And fear of death if it isn't. If the church isn't true then what happens to us when we die? If there isn't an afterlife then this life is totally, completely, and utterly pointless. If there isn't life after death then it doesn't matter whether a person is a philanthropist or a pedofile. How does one reconcile this???? Where do people find the will to continue life without religion?
I'm going to be a little different than the other responses you have gotten here and say, yes. This is a tough one. It is certainly a viable way to look at life/the world. It isn't the only way, but it is one way. I still suffer from time to time from existential dread. It's been rather bad recently, brought on by a combination of boredom, family deaths, feelings of helplessness and a general feeling of lack of control in my own life. I'm working on it. I just want to validate you and say yes, these thoughts and feelings are real. You'll have to work through it. It won't be easy, it will probably take time. And life's a journey. You have every right to change your mind, your life philosophy, your beliefs as you go. Having one right answer may feel comfortable, but it doesn't mean it's right, in either a factual sense, or for you, yourself.

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GoodBoy
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by GoodBoy » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:01 pm

Wanted to highlight what I think is really good advice here:
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:53 pm
Welcome to crazy town!

My advice has changed over the years. At first I thought it was a great idea to hide my disaffection. So I did. I was afraid it would lead to divorce. So I spent the last 12 years unraveling each layer until I found my place between the wood gym floorboards. Still married to a TBM wife. So here's my advice:

1. Read good boys post above. Have the talk with your wife.

2. Set boundaries and map out where you ultimately want to be. Morals, values, in another church, etc.

3. Set out a timeline preferably a year.

4. Fade from Internet Mormonism as fast as possible. It's extremely addicting and can quickly replace your current brand of Mormonism. Over time you'll find you spend more time reading church history, the bloggernacle, podcasts, NOM/exmo than time spent doing mormon stuff.

5. Spend your time developing a new life with new hobbies and relationships. Bonus if you can make money at it.

6. Enjoy picking out your OWN underwear. There's unlimited options and colors.

7. Don't be afraid to get divorced. Life will go on and time will heal. I'd rather have 10 years of post Mormonism than 10 years of mixed faith bullsh*t and than a divorce. Know when to call it quits.

8. Life is short. Not knowing what comes next is peaceful. You'll know what I mean when you get there. ;)

9. It's ok to laugh at yourself. Yes, you really did wear funny underwear and reported wearing it back to your religious leaders. Kind of weird. Kind of funny.

10. Love wins
You are going to need a new tribe. Make a conscious effort and get started on making new friends. Meetup.com is a good place to start. Colleagues at work are also a good source. But of course try not to lose your old friends by remaining respectful of others beliefs no matter how misguided or silly they are.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by MalcolmVillager » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:35 pm

Welcome!

This sucks!

It is not your fault!

We have been/are there with you.

Everyone's story is different.

Everyone's spouse reacts differently.

Go easy, slow, and gentle on yourself and your family (especially pregnant ones)!

It gets better.

Sadly, you don't get to choose how others treat you (this is the worst part).

You can live on your terms inside, outside, or a little of both of the church.

The truth is what it is. Some people are interested, and others don't care.

Oh, did I mention go slow and be gentle?!!!

Find someone IRL to meet if possible.

Be honest with your wife. Make sure she knows how hard this is for you and how sad and confused you are about it.

GOOD LUCK!

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LostGirl
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by LostGirl » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:32 am

Welcome! I am glad that you have found this group as it has been a great source of information and support to me.

Knowing that you are not alone in your disbelief is a huge relief.

I am with you on the fear. I was absolutely terrified through my first few years of my faith collapsing, mostly that I would lose my family and all of my friends if they knew. That has not completely gone away. Like merriemiss my husband does not know everything as I have not wanted to shatter his world by sitting down and blurting out years of pent up thoughts and emotions. However I have shared my issues with him in small steps and was so relieved to receive support and love from him. I know not all are so fortunate and I also know this may not extend to one day leaving together.

So we all walk our own tightrope.

I find more meaning in life when I focus on living each day than when I was trying to work towards the celestial goals.

I feel less guilt when I let go of the expectations that I have shouldered from everyone, including myself.

So like others, I would recommend including your wife in your feelings but maybe take baby steps, especially while she is pregnant. This is going to sound manipulative but I don't mean it to be - figure out which issues she may respond to most and start there as it will be easier for her to understand. For me, as a female, the truth about polygamy and the implications for our elusive heavenly mother was and is way too much for me to swallow. The essays are a great starting point if this is something she would be interested in learning.

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LostGirl
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by LostGirl » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:44 am

I realised as soon as I sent my last post that I should clarify. I don't recommend jumping into trying to deconvert your wife, as much as you might want to. I have learned that for my marriage to work I have to continue to respect his beliefs as much as he seeks to understand mine.
But at the same time you can pick an issue like polgamy to help her to understand why you are struggling and how it makes you feel.
It is a fine line.
A tightrope made of cotton thread.
Good luck but please don't despair. Take a breath, take a step back and take it slow.

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Jinx
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Re: New to NOM. Need help.

Post by Jinx » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:03 pm

Welcome. I am so sorry that you are in such a dark place. I can relate - I was there several years ago. It takes time to come to terms with new truth, but you will come out stronger on the other side. Stronger and happier in your freedom. You are strong, and you are good, and you can decide your own morals for yourself. Listen to your inner voice, stay true to what you truly believe is right. You've got this. You can do it. It's not easy, but it's so worth it.

Blessings on you.
“This is the best part of the week!” – Homer Simpson
“It’s the longest possible time before more church!” – Lisa Simpson

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