I am græy. Happy to become part of this community.

[græy]

Hi Everyone! I apologize for the wall of text.

tl;dr - Hi! Thank you!

Quick introduction. I am several months shy of 38, currently serving as a counselor in the bishopric of our ward. I am BIC, RM, married with 4 beautiful children and while I am in the US, I do not live in or near Utah.

About two years ago my athiest co-worker asked me some general interest questions about Mormonism. We had had many conversations in the past, but for some reason this particular conversation sparked something in me. I realized that I had dedicated my life (choices on who to date, mission, marriage, and income) to a church that I hadn't REALLY studied. I mean, I had read the BOM dozens of times, the OT cover to cover, the NT at least a couple of times, and actively attended church for 35+ years, but I had never REALLY looked at the church or sought answers to those points that never quite made sense to me.

That day I read all the essays and immediately got a sense of the white washing going on in the language they used. I dug deeper. When I realized that prophets and apostles had been wrong about blacks and the priesthood/temple the rabbit hole opened up to a chasm. If so many of them were wrong about something that caused so many others pain, what else are they wrong about?

Suddenly holes started appearing everywhere.

I started dropping little hints to my wife about my new studies. I told her about the "cultural" side of Mormonism that we're all judged against, even though it is doctrinally meaningless. I occasionally showed her some of the historical contradictions that the church doesn't bother to mention to anyone. She was patient through all of this, but not really receptive.

Three or four months into my new motivation to learn about the church I was called as a counselor in our new bishopric. At the time I thought that maybe this was some sort of sign. Though I couldn't tell if it was God sanctioning the direction I was going, or trying to tell me to focus on the here and now and drop what I was doing. I kept studying.

Nearly two years into this bishopric calling, and I am dying inside.

I have continued to study. Rough Stone Rolling, David O. McKay and Modern Mormonism, Joseph Smith's Polygamy, In Sacred Loneliness. Fowler's Stages of Faith, the CES letter, Letter to my Wife, Harrell's This is my Doctrine, Mormon Discussion Podcasts (ALL of them), many Mormon Stories podcasts. All while faithfully fulfilling my calling, and regularly holding FHE and family scripture study.

On Sundays I am in meetings all day. The ward council, I feel, genuinely does care about the members in our ward. We spend very little time talking about people who have asked us to leave them alone, or who are obviously disaffected. The vast bulk of our efforts are towards helping those in actual need. That said, there are rare, though occasional, remarks about people "whining about a faith crisis."

I hate tracking people down to give them callings, or ask them to speak in sacrament meeting. No one wants to do that. No one is happy when I approach them or try to talk to them. I hate trying to plan sacrament meetings while avoiding assigning topics about the restoration or Joseph Smith, or the priesthood. I am required to bear testimony very frequently. But for two years, I have never said "I know" anything. I don't know. I don't know anything. The best I can do is hope, but the things are I have hope in are still a small sliver of what people expect of me. By the time I do get home I have mild to somewhat severe headaches - only on Sunday, but every Sunday.

Meanwhile, my wife cries each time I bring up something that up-ends a traditionally faith-promoting story that just isn't true. She asks me why I never say anything positive about my studies of the church. I have placated her by saying it is just the negative side that is new to me, so that is the side I share. The truth is, I see very little positive to say about the church's history, or about basic Mormon doctrines. They're full of holes, and the simpler explanation is that they're all made up.

She has listened to a few Mormon Discussion podcasts with me (mostly the very early ones), but has said she's afraid to study more because she doesn't know how she would handle it.

The other day I mentioned Clarke's bible commentary being a source of the JST. We talked about plagiarism vs translation, and she made a joke about college students "writing" papers by "the gift and power of Google." Those are the moments I cling to. Those comments give me a faint ray of hope. But, later that night I found her continuing her goal to read all of the talks President Nelson has ever given in GC.

There is a lot more to say, but I'll be impressed if anyone can get through this already. Either way, thank you! Thank you for being a safe place.

I am neither cold nor hot. I am neither black nor white. I am græy.

I feel trapped. But here, I feel as though I've found friends.

Edit: Spelling

[Corsair]

We are glad you found us. It must be a particularly tricky church life to be in a bishopric when reevaluating your faith. Have you seen any faith transitions in your ward? Have their been ward members that have left by either quietly disappearing or loudly proclaiming their disbelief?

[græy]

Thanks Corsair,

Before I got into the bishopric there were three families who left, two families of four, one family of five. All were early 30's and among the more active/reliable ones.

The first family, the husband came out to his wife as never having actually believed in god. Historical issues eventually got the best of her and they just quit coming after that. At the time it was a big deal in the ward.

The second family stopped coming when the Nov '15 policy hit.

The third family was also a casualty of Nov '15. Except in this case he made a fairly public Facebook post about the historical points that had been on his shelf up until then.

In recent years we have had several families move in where either the husband or wife is attending only to support the spouse, sometimes grudgingly. But our ward is very transient, and only a couple of them are still here. None of them have ever done anything to loudly proclaim their positions.

edit: removed unnecessary detail

[Corsair]

Before I got into the bishopric there were three families who left, two families of four, one family of five. All were early 30's and among the more active/reliable ones.

Was there any discussion of this kind of "falling away" during bishopric meeting? Was there any substantive discussion about their individual issues or just attribution to the usual apostasy cliches?

[Red Ryder]

Welcome graey!

Lol, my phone just autocorrected to gravy!

My brother had his faith crisis as a counselor in the bishopric. He eventually asked to be released and they honored that after a few months.

You'll often hear to take things slow. You're in a great spot to ride it out on your own terms and even have an opportunity to make church about Jesus but most likely that will get tiresome.

I have no good advice for dealing with the wife because my very own is only emotionally connected to the church. She doesn't care about doctrine and has ended many church discussions by adamantly claiming she doesn't worship Joseph Smith, doesn't care if he had 300 wives, and goes to church because she loves the feelings she feels there and the good people she's surrounded by.

Nothing I say can can counter that.

If you haven't done so yet, watch Kumare with your wife and have a conversation about the ending.

[græy]

Was there any discussion of this kind of "falling away" during bishopric meeting? Was there any substantive discussion about their individual issues or just attribution to the usual apostasy cliches?

At the time, a 3rd hour class was held discussing the BoA. They threw out the standard apologetic answers and everyone ate it up. But since I've been around, there has been nothing more the usual cliche'd blame-game conversations. Most people on the WC are pretty unaware, and those who are don't want to bring up "new" issues.

[græy]

Hi Red Ryder!

Gravy works too. I never remember how we are supposed to spell gray/grey, so I just use both.

There are times when I think, "I'm already two years into this, I can finish it off." But there are others when I think there is no way to see this through to the end. My sacrament topics and my own talks are very Christ-centered. Mostly just focusing on the "Live as he taught" and "Give yourself credit, you really are a good person" theme.

I had to look up Kumare. I had never heard of it before but it really looks fascinating. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Linked]

Welcome græy! I am glad you found us, I was in a similar place a couple years ago and NOM has been so valuable to me. I hope it can be the same for you as much as you need it.

I was the Sunday School president when my shelf crashed and Ward Council was the worst. So much talk of "Rescue", when the council's idea of rescue is ridiculous to me. I'm glad you are able to do some real good in your councils.

Meanwhile, my wife cries each time I bring up something that up-ends a traditionally faith-promoting story that just isn't true. She asks me why I never say anything positive about my studies of the church. I have placated her by saying it is just the negative side that is new to me, so that is the side I share. The truth is, I see very little positive to say about the church's history, or about basic Mormon doctrines. They're full of holes, and the simpler explanation is that they're all made up.

I relate to this paragraph too. I feel badly for my wife because she didn't ask for this, but neither did we. It's a really tough place. It sounds like you have come to terms with not believing in the mormon narrative at this point (please correct me if I'm wrong). Does your wife know you are done?

Again, welcome!

[wtfluff]

There is a lot more to say, but I'll be impressed if anyone can get through this already. Either way, thank you! Thank you for being a safe place.

I believe I"m not alone in saying: I love reading through such stories, so feel free to continue to share as you wish. (I read every word.)



My exit was, and continues to be a train wreck, so advice? I've got none, except: Hang in there...

[græy]

Thank you Linked. BTW, Great name and avatar!

It sounds like you have come to terms with not believing in the mormon narrative at this point (please correct me if I'm wrong). Does your wife know you are done?

I think I'm comfortable with where I'm at on my own. My calling bothers me because I feel like I'm expected, at least to an extent, to perpetuate claims that I really don't hold any more.

My wife knows I don't believe in a historical BoM. She says she's fine with that. She also knows I take issue with some historical events and polygamy. But it is difficult to really elaborate or be honest with where I am at. For example, she says she's comfortable with multiple first vision accounts, and accepted my argument about the 1832 (Joseph's Journal) account possibly being the most accurate - it was written by Joseph himself, not filtered for any particular audience, and was closest in time to the actual event. However, once I start detailing the ramifications of that being the most accurate (i.e. we give up our current understanding of the god-head) she bails on the conversation and tears start to flow.

So that is where we are at. She knows I have questions and concerns, but isn't aware of how far those concerns have pushed me over the edge of believing in Mormonism.

[græy]

I believe I"m not alone in saying: I love reading through such stories, so feel free to continue to share as you wish. (I read every word.)

I don't think I can express how good it feels to be heard and not feel like I'm being judged or that you're going to run away in tears for what I type.

Thank you wtfluff

[BriansThoughtMirror]

By the time I do get home I have mild to somewhat severe headaches - only on Sunday, but every Sunday.

Oh, man, I hear ya. My headaches finally went away when I became open about my disbelief with my wife and the closest extended family. The general sense of unnamed dread I constantly felt in my gut also seems to have mostly dissipated! The more authentic I've been, the better I have felt, even despite the continuing existential crisis.

Welcome, græy! I hope you find what you need!

[slavereeno]

By the time I do get home I have mild to somewhat severe headaches - only on Sunday, but every Sunday.

I can also relate to this. I was one of the minor demons in a stake presidency and I dreaded Sunday so much that it ruined my Saturdays completely. Favorite day was Monday when there was a 6 day buffer between me and another Sunday... I am a primary teacher now, and Sunday's are much more enjoyable.

[Kishkumen]

Hi Graey, Welcome

You are where I feared I would arrive - in a BPric. I can only imagine how tough it would be to walk in your shoes right now. Hang in there. It does get better, even if it isn't perfect. As many others already stated, I related heavily to your Sunday headaches.

I don't have the gift of eloquence like some here. I usually resort to anger, typing a furious rant, then getting over it a few days later. I really appreciate your introduction and how well you've been handling it. I wish I could have done some of what you did/are doing with your spouse.

I just want to offer my support for your current situation. I've been there. Be honest and open with your wife. Take her hand and go on this journey together. She sounds like she's starting to open a little, but she's very scared - as if she knows where this will lead. Reassure her that you will be right there with her. That she is more important than anything else.

Also, try the Year of Polygamy podcast. Listen to it together but tell her it's OK if she jumps ahead without you.

Keep on truckin'

[moksha]

Welcome, GrÆy.

[notforprophet]

I just want to back up wtfluff!

I love reading this stuff!

I'm definitely not any kind of expert, but it seems like you're handling the situation with your wife the best way you possibly can. My thoughts are with you. I wish you the best of luck.

When I reach maybe 100+ posts I'll start using "we" instead of "I", haha.

[græy]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the support. It feels like I've been holding onto this for a long time. Its nice to have some people who understand that things don't always add up, and that the inconsistencies aren't so easily dismissed when you actually stop to consider the ramifications of that.

I certainly won't be on the forum every day, but I do look forward to participating with the rest of you fine people!

[Guy]

Welcome græy. Glad to have you on board.

Our stories are very similar, only it seems you have hung on (for the sake of family) much longer than I did. After a few months into my search for truth, and research into the Church, I was done. Once I made that decision I no longer believed, I quickly asked to be removed from the calling at the time; did not accept any new callings; stopped attending services; etc.

I'm 10 years being a non-believer, and funny enough, now I find myself going back to Church. Not because I'm rediscovering my faith - I'll never believe again - but because I do genuinely like many of the people in my ward, and it makes my wife happy! And a happy wife makes for a happy life!

Here is one thing I will share. The lucky ones that go through this faith transition are the ones whose spouses join them on their journey. But those are rare. It's more likely that your spouse will not join you on this new faith (or lack of faith) journey. We can not control how our spouses will react to the information that we provide to them, even if we are extremely careful in how we provide it. As I studied and researched the Church and its history and its doctrine/policy, I shared these things with my wife. And ultimately what I shared with her drove her deeper into her belief. She went from being a somewhat moderate participant/believer in the Church to becoming a hardcore/activist member of the Church. At times I look back and think I shared too much, too soon with her. But overall I don't think it would have mattered how I shared the information, the results would have been the same. Our religious paths diverged and it hasn't been easy. But we never stopped loving each other and fortunately are still together and happy!

I wish you good fortune in your journey and hope that you are one of the lucky ones!

[græy]

Thanks Guy,

I appreciate the encouragement and advice. I can see my future looking a lot like yours, except more drawn out because I am too cowardly to talk to my wife/bishop/SP about anything right now.

My wife has already turned out to be much more patient and willing to listen than I thought she would be at the start of this. But, while she does listen and doesn't get too defensive (yet), she doesn't really engage the conversation either. She won't internalize anything that isn't... uplifting. I can't blame her for that, we've been taught our whole lives that anything good comes from Christ. The other stuff? Anything that makes you feel less than hopeful, optimistic, charitable, or blessed by God, well that is obviously from the Devil, the father of lies and half-truths.

It doesn't matter that the church has just as many half-truths tucked under its belt, she feels good thinking about what she wants to believe.

While she has been patient so far, I am honestly scared of her reaction if I were to be completely honest with her. Like many others have found, I think she'd always see me a something less than what she'd signed up for.

As I studied and researched the Church and its history and its doctrine/policy, I shared these things with my wife. And ultimately what I shared with her drove her deeper into her belief. She went from being a somewhat moderate participant/believer in the Church to becoming a hardcore/activist member of the Church.

In some ways, I can see this happening already in our home. While my wife has maaayybe started to relax a bit in some small areas (very small, and it may not last), she has definitely retrenched on her own scripture study goals, which were never very lax to begin with.

I don't know, man. I mean, Guy. I'll just keep going for now, try to survive to the end of this calling and see how much I've divulged before then, or how much I'll be free to divulge at that time. One day at a time, brick by brick, precept upo... oh n/m.

[wtfluff]

... I am too cowardly to talk to my wife/bishop/SP about anything right now. ...

As a side note: "Talking" with your bishop or SP about loss of faith is almost always an absolute, complete waste of time. They won't have any "answers" (because the answer is: It's all made up,) and many times it can be bad for a marriage.

If you need to fly under the radar, then do it without giving the "powers that be" any reason to put you on a list to save you.

And remember, it's a volunteer organization. If you need to stop doing a calling, tell "powers that be" that you're resigning from your calling as of "this date" and be done with it. They don't need a reason, and you don't need to give them a reason for no longer volunteering. "No" is a complete sentence; So is: "No, thank you" (If you'd like to be a little more polite.) Repeat those two sentences as often as necessary.