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Hmmm
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:21 pm
by Vito
Thanks for letting me join the community here. Here's my introduction.
In 2013 when the race and the priesthood essay was released, I was glad to see teachings the seed of Cain be officially swept off the books.
But oddly during this same time I have enjoyed a bright spiritual life. So I have developed a living faith (not certainty) of God and Jesus Christ. The last years have also been painful as I did things like: avoiding expressing my beliefs, tried to live around my issues, quit callings...
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Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:20 pm
by FiveFingerMnemonic
xaphalanx wrote:Thanks for letting me join the community here. Here's my introduction.
In 2013 I had life changing spiritual experience. The label I gave it and the understanding I gave it was not supported by official church teaching. I'm not so attached to the label anymore, but I was at the time and it oddly enough was the first crack in my wall. In 2013 when the race and the priesthood essay was released, I was glad to see teachings the seed of Cain be officially swept off the books. It was also the first time I realized the Brethren could be wrong about something: label something doctrine and then disavow or deny that it ever was doctrine. So I asked the question, "If they were that wrong about that what about everything else"? Well I found all the other things since then and in the process lost any sense of trust in the Brethren and any sort of fundamentalist interpretation of the standard works (I don't say scriptures because I want to be clear that I'm not referring to conference talks).
I still go to church and currently I am an executive secretary in the bishopric even though I don't have a TR. Every Sunday, I try to focus on helping people at church and not on what's being said/taught. That's gotten unbearably difficult now that we are only reading conference talks 3rd hour and in our ward 1st hour. Lately I feel queasy and sick to my stomach at church.
But oddly during this same time I have enjoyed a bright spiritual life in avenues outside of the church. So I have developed a living faith (not certainty) of God and Jesus Christ. The last years have also been painful as I did things like: avoiding expressing my beliefs, tried to live around my issues, quit callings, stopped teaching at church (I'm pretty sure I'm on the don't ask list for speaking at church), stopped raising my hand to sustain people, don't pay tithing and so on.
My wife is being drawn deeper to her religion as I disengage a bit more every week. We have a good relationship. I trust we will work things out eventually even if that means settling into a multi-faith family. She doesn't understand where I'm at on a number of topics and our conversations have been strained. I'm hoping that I can listen and be heard with deeper empathy and understanding. I think writing and talking about it more will sustain me and her better in the future.
I see Wisdom, authenticity, and understanding in the posts here and I'm impressed. Thanks for listening.
Welcome, and thanks for sharing. You are among friends. It's a great ward.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:13 pm
by Ghost
It's interesting how each of us has a different incidental issue or experience that has led us to question. Or to allow ourselves to question. Or to realize that it's even possible to question.
I also attend church but I rarely go to any classes or meetings. (I have a calling that makes that easy.) I recently did attend a class, however, and it reminded me just how far my perspective has drifted. I also haven't been asked to speak in church in quite some time. Maybe my last talk was too unusual. I don't mind, though. I'd have a hard time coming up with something for most of the usual topics.
Welcome to the site.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:07 am
by Vito
Ghost wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:13 pm
I also attend church but I rarely go to any classes or meetings. (I have a calling that makes that easy.) I recently did attend a class, however, and it reminded me just how far my perspective has drifted. I also haven't been asked to speak in church in quite some time. Maybe my last talk was too unusual. I don't mind, though. I'd have a hard time coming up with something for most of the usual topics.
Welcome to the site.
Church doesn't hold interest for me. I used to feel anger in classes. Now I just hear the vulnerability and faith of the person speaking ... when I go.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:51 am
by Corsair
xaphalanx wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:21 pm
I still go to church and currently I am an executive secretary in the bishopric even though I don't have a TR. Every Sunday, I try to focus on helping people at church and not on what's being said/taught.
I wish you were in my ward. I also attend weekly and hold a calling. I simply hope to help other people in the ward. I volunteered to be on the Scout Committee and that has been good. One of these days I will probably get asked to do something that is not going to work like Ward Mission Leader or Elders Quorum President and I will have to turn them down. Until then, I will just sit here with my suspiciously acquired temple recommend enjoying working in the Scouting program.
xaphalanx wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:21 pm
That's gotten unbearably difficult now that we are only reading conference talks 3rd hour and in our ward 1st hour. Lately I feel queasy and sick to my stomach at church.
There are so many ways to improve the LDS church experience, but this is the current orthodoxy we have instead. Instead of transcendence and deep study of the Savior, we have simply have ongoing reports of men who live deep inside the LDS bubble.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:56 am
by IT_Veteran
Welcome, I think you'll find everyone here to be supportive - I certainly have. I have wondered a lot lately how many of the people around us at church no longer believe either. If everyone were able to really discuss their feelings and doubts, how many would we have left?
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:25 pm
by Vito
Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:51 am
I wish you were in my ward. I also attend weekly and hold a calling. I simply hope to help other people in the ward. I volunteered to be on the Scout Committee and that has been good. One of these days I will probably get asked to do something that is not going to work like Ward Mission Leader or Elders Quorum President and I will have to turn them down. Until then, I will just sit here with my suspiciously acquired temple recommend
I wish I was in your ward, we could hang out in the foyer and have fun with the "bouncer".
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:57 am
by græy
xaphalanx wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:21 pm
I still go to church and currently I am an executive secretary in the bishopric even though I don't have a TR. Every Sunday, I try to focus on helping people at church and not on what's being said/taught.
Welcome! We're in a similar boat here, I'm currently a counselor in the bishopric. I also really try to focus on service towards those who are really in need. Some weeks are worse/better than others.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:19 pm
by DPRoberts
xaphalanx wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:21 pm
Thanks for letting me join the community here. Here's my introduction.
In 2013 I had life changing spiritual experience. The label I gave it and the understanding I gave it was not supported by official church teaching. I'm not so attached to the label anymore, but I was at the time and it oddly enough was the first crack in my wall. In 2013 when the race and the priesthood essay was released, I was glad to see teachings the seed of Cain be officially swept off the books. It was also the first time I realized the Brethren could be wrong about something: label something doctrine and then disavow or deny that it ever was doctrine.
So I asked the question, "If they were that wrong about that what about everything else"? Well I found all the other things since then and in the process lost any sense of trust in the Brethren and any sort of fundamentalist interpretation of the standard works (I don't say scriptures because I want to be clear that I'm not referring to conference talks).
I still go to church and currently I am an executive secretary in the bishopric even though I don't have a TR.
Every Sunday, I try to focus on helping people at church and not on what's being said/taught. That's gotten unbearably difficult now that we are only reading conference talks 3rd hour and in our ward 1st hour. Lately I feel queasy and sick to my stomach at church.
But oddly during this same time I have enjoyed a bright spiritual life in avenues outside of the church. So I have developed a
living faith (not certainty) of God and Jesus Christ. The last years have also been painful as I did things like: avoiding expressing my beliefs, tried to live around my issues, quit callings, stopped teaching at church (I'm pretty sure I'm on the don't ask list for speaking at church), stopped raising my hand to sustain people, don't pay tithing and so on.
My wife is being drawn deeper to her religion as I disengage a bit more every week.
We have a good relationship. I trust we will work things out eventually even if that means settling into a multi-faith family. She doesn't understand where I'm at on a number of topics and our conversations have been strained. I'm hoping that I can listen and be heard with deeper empathy and understanding. I think writing and talking about it more will sustain me and her better in the future.
I see Wisdom, authenticity, and understanding in the posts here and I'm impressed. Thanks for listening.
Welcome xaphalanx. And thanks for the positive feedback on our "ward".
I highlighted a few things I could particularly identify with. The race and priesthood essay really does shoot a hole through prophetic infallibility. I would like to hear more about how you focus on helping people when the format of LDS meetings does not actually facilitate that. I really think that LDS pretended certainty is antithetical to faith and am glad that you managed to keep a spiritual life that works for you. Glad you have a good relationship with your wife.
I am intrigued by your continued spiritual growth outside of the Mormon box. I hope you will share more about that when you feel comfortable.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:56 pm
by wanderer
IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:56 am
Welcome, I think you'll find everyone here to be supportive - I certainly have. I have wondered a lot lately how many of the people around us at church no longer believe either. If everyone were able to really discuss their feelings and doubts, how many would we have left?
This. I look around often every Sunday in my YSA ward at all my bright young ward members in Mormon central and wonder how many actually believe the whole correlated story of Mormonism? How many have doubts? How many are troubled about aspects of Church history? How many are more liberal about certain issues? How many are like me? I feel like there are probably quite a few, but it feels like we cannot talk about it. I hate this culture of silence and shame. It is one of the things I dislike most about the Church honestly. I try to connect with people at Church and just be kind to them, be friends with them, try to add a bit of a different perspective where I can, here or there, but really it is such a struggle for me. So looking forward to going abroad in the near future, where I will be able to make new friends and talk with them about these things without fear of discovery. Then maybe I will gain the confidence to tell my family and friends here if I decide that that's best.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:08 pm
by wanderer
xaphalanx wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:21 pm
I see Wisdom, authenticity, and understanding in the posts here and I'm impressed. Thanks for listening.
I just joined this forum too and see this as well. Thank you for sharing your story, Xaphalanx. I hope that this community continues to be a great support for both of us.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:10 pm
by wanderer
DPRoberts wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:19 pm
I am intrigued by your continued spiritual growth outside of the Mormon box. I hope you will share more about that when you feel comfortable.
So am I, Xaphalanx. I would love to hear more about your transformative spiritual experience you wrote of, and of your current experience of faith. Hope you will share when/if it is right for you.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:48 pm
by MoPag
xaphalanx wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:21 pm
Every Sunday, I try to focus on helping people at church and not on what's being said/taught.
This is great! There are so many people who are silently hurting at church. Now that you are a NOM you officially have a NOM calling at church. (This goes for all you new NOMs who are still attending.) Be a friend to the lonely members, or members who don't fit the typical TBM mold. Keep an eye out for youth on the LGBT spectrum and be a safe person they can talk to. When you participate in class discussions, promote doctrines that are inclusive and loving.
Welcome to the ward family!
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:20 am
by Vito
MoPag wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:48 pm
Now that you are a NOM you officially have a NOM calling at church. (This goes for all you new NOMs who are still attending.) Be a friend to the lonely members, or members who don't fit the typical TBM mold. Keep an eye out for youth on the LGBT spectrum and be a safe person they can talk to. When you participate in class discussions, promote doctrines that are inclusive and loving.
Calling accepted, and no need to set me apart. You couldn't stop me from doing this if you tried.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:07 am
by Vito
wanderer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:10 pm
DPRoberts wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:19 pm
I am intrigued by your continued spiritual growth outside of the Mormon box. I hope you will share more about that when you feel comfortable.
So am I, Xaphalanx. I would love to hear more about your transformative spiritual experience you wrote of, and of your current experience of faith. Hope you will share when/if it is right for you.
Spirituality to me is about inward change moving outward. So, learning how to treat myself compassionately leads to me treating others with that same compassion. Spirituality is about how I relate to the myself, God and others. It's about living true to the values I hold dear on the inside. I can practice this Faith where ever I am and in whatever circumstances I find myself in even if the others around me seemed tuned into something else.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:19 am
by Hagoth
xaphalanx wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:21 pm
My wife is being drawn deeper to her religion as I disengage a bit more every week.
Welcome xaphalanx! Do you think your wife is doing this as a direct reaction to your growing disaffection? That's a pretty common response.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:46 am
by Vito
Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:19 am
xaphalanx wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:21 pm
My wife is being drawn deeper to her religion as I disengage a bit more every week.
Welcome xaphalanx! Do you think your wife is doing this as a direct reaction to your growing disaffection? That's a pretty common response.
Yes. I do. If roles were reversed that's what I would do. Think like a TBM, "if I had been more obedient this would not have happened". Therefore, the corrective action is more obedience.
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:36 pm
by JustHangingOn@57
Belated welcome 'X'. I'm too lazy to try and pronounce your handle. Sorrry. I am 57, joined church when I was in my early 20's, and had a (heavy ladened) shelf collapse about 2years ago. I am currently the secretary in the HP group, full tith paying, but ever so slightly setting the stage for a slow bow out when the opportunity presents itself. I am only faking it for my DW, who I love. She is sadly is fully engaged. Hang in there. There are some very welcoming people on this board, who also have amazing insight and advice. I just wish there were more contributors because the board seems kind of deserted most of the time. Again, welcome!
Re: Call Me Impressed
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:58 pm
by Bremguy
JustHangingOn@57 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:36 pm
Belated welcome 'X'. I'm too lazy to try and pronounce your handle. Sorrry. I am 57, joined church when I was in my early 20's, and had a (heavy ladened) shelf collapse about 2years ago. I am currently the secretary in the HP group, full tith paying, but ever so slightly setting the stage for a slow bow out when the opportunity presents itself.
I too WAS the secretary in ouor HP Group too. I was the secretary through 3 different groups of leaders. Now that the HP Group no longer exists, I wonder what they will do with us ? This may be the slow bow out you were looking for. Maybe you will go totally under the radar and be long forgotten.
Now for my introduction. I was a member on the first NOM board, run by Dathon. I found it very helpful in helping me attend Church on my terms. I take the view, it is a Sunday social club. Much like a car club, quilting club. When I came back, it was like nothing changed over the 4 or 5 years I was gone. The same issues, the same topics, just different people with them.
One of the things that still bothers me and has, is how little real theological training the GA have. Sure, in their bios they list their various degrees in various things that have little if anything to do with actual theology.