New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

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Hagoth
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by Hagoth » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:09 pm

Boozer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:13 pm
Very attached to the feel if its right mentality that we get from the church.
That is at the core of the Mormon Way. My wife is just starting to realize that whenever she is worried or uncomfortable about something she doesn't need to brace for disaster because that feeling is God telling her something is wrong (e.g. woke up worrying about one of our kids, so that kid must be in danger).
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Linked
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by Linked » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:10 pm

Boozer wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:22 pm
I have half of me that is terrified to step out because it's been the most constant thing in my life, and the other half of me that is ready to be heard and say out loud that so much of this is pure invented garbage that doesn't really do anything. Its really conflicting and I have DW who is so concerned that I am making a wrong choice and will end up on hardcore drugs.
I think I speak for many here when I say we know how you feel. Do what you need to do to survive and thrive.

The way you wrote that struck me. It is interesting that the initial reaction to call BS is often the least helpful for our relationships with TBMs. I battle that feeling to verbally strike down what I see is BS every day, and still my DW gets frustrated and complains that I always trash the church.

(I recently complained of people at work making fun of a transgender person at the gym they go to, and I said it's frustrating that everyone around here [Utah] is like that. I said everyone because I run into that attitude at work, at basketball, at family get-togethers, at church, etc. DW got really defensive about it, and eventually told me that she felt I was attacking the church when I said "everyone". I need to complain less around DW...)

Many here on NOM talk about becoming indifferent to the mormon church, and that being the ideal disaffected mormons should strive for, chiefly Corsair and Red Ryder. It would be nice if a transition would go Believer --> Not Sure --> Indifferent --> Maybe It's Bad --> Angry Apostate instead of putting Indifferent at the end like seems to be typical. I think that would really help relationships with our TBM loved ones. Fake it til you make it I guess.

It sounds like you and DW are talking, I think that's probably good. I hope you guys can continue to understand each other better and better. Good luck dealing with the feeling based decision making and attributing stuff to the HG that makes no sense.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Boozer
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by Boozer » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:40 pm

on the topic of feeling based decisions. I have yet to tell DW (planning to tonight) that when the news of her emotional affair first broke I went straight to prayer, and the first "impression" I had in my mind was "Let her go". For me, that has been a huge turning point. I think its more likely that I am hurt and not reasoning right and I don't buy that just give up crap when we have a son that we both love to death and we used to have a great relationship. I think it just needs some TLC and we can be back on top. Also, if the answer is to let her go then what was the point of feeling right about getting married to each other in the first place? We just needed to make a boy and then we could split? No, I believe that our marriage and family are important and need to be fought for. I am terrified to tell her because she has trusted previous impressions before.

So with my doubts about "feelings equal truth" and being open and talking with my brother who has quit the church it has all kind of created the perfect conditions for a FC. I keep bringing up Polygamy with her because the more I read about it the more it seems possible/likely that JS was a total creeper and manipulator. But every time I bring up stuff from either the CES letter or Mormon Stories she just goes for the "anyone can make up anything on the internet". I get it but it's frustrating me because she is willing to talk and hear my problems but even when something is sourced from the Journal of Discourses it's blamed on "well I would have to read the source". I am having to tone down myself because at that point I start to lose it, "I AM READING THE SOURCE TO YOU???? I AM READING STRAIGHT FROM THE JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, THE CHURCH'S OWN MATERIAL". I get it, after all, there is a tendency to take everything as proof of your world view.

I listened to the Mormon Stories Podcast with Tom Phillips where he shares about the 2nd anointing and his experiences with Holland. Crazy, the whole thing. I just thought I would ask you guys if you had heard any of those that you thought were really interesting. There are a lot of them so I would like to listen to some more but be selective and get the most interesting ones first. You all have any input?

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Red Ryder
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:41 pm

Boozer wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:40 pm
I listened to the Mormon Stories Podcast with Tom Phillips where he shares about the 2nd anointing and his experiences with Holland. Crazy, the whole thing. I just thought I would ask you guys if you had heard any of those that you thought were really interesting. There are a lot of them so I would like to listen to some more but be selective and get the most interesting ones first. You all have any input?
Go find the old Mormon Expression podcast episodes by John Larsen.

Image


http://johnlarsen.org/mormon-expression/

One of my favorites: how the church takes things from you and sales them back.

http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/M ... ion228.mp3

Here’s the top 25 list from a reddit post archived.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... sodes_the/
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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MerrieMiss
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:57 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:41 pm

Go find the old Mormon Expression podcast episodes by John Larsen.
Here’s the top 25 list from a reddit post archived.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... sodes_the/
If I may suggest episode 220, Searching for the Smoking Gun and the Parallax Problem. I've listened to it a couple times to remind myself I can't orchestrate anyone else's (my spouse, for example) faith crisis/transition/seeing the light.

Boozer
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by Boozer » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:16 am

Hey, Thanks for the recommendations! I'm liking a lot of John's s discussions, I started the Parallax problem this morning. I also watched "In The Shadow of The Temple" and felt horrible for those people, while at the same time cheering the one guy who stayed with his wife especially at the end when he said that he thinks we will get to the judgment bar and find out we all had it wrong.

I am in an awkward position this morning that I am sure some of you have found yourselves in. There are 3 child baptisms in my ward today and I was asked to stand in the confirmation circle for one of them. I am currently not wearing my g's (that's only been since a week before conference) and my wife knows it. She knows that I am towards the church isn't true and that the priesthood is just an imagination. I want to be there for this friend, but I am starting to feel that baptizing kids at 8 is just a way to indoctrinate them. Im nervous about the whole after discussion that this is going to bring up, right now if it were my son we would probably be fighting over it because I wouldn't be comfortable with it right now.

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DPRoberts
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by DPRoberts » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:49 am

Hey, Boozer, I just want to say welcome to our community. I hope we can learn from and support each other in mutually beneficial ways.
Boozer wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:40 pm
on the topic of feeling based decisions. I have yet to tell DW (planning to tonight) that when the news of her emotional affair first broke I went straight to prayer, and the first "impression" I had in my mind was "Let her go". For me, that has been a huge turning point. I think its more likely that I am hurt and not reasoning right and I don't buy that just give up crap when we have a son that we both love to death and we used to have a great relationship. I think it just needs some TLC and we can be back on top. Also, if the answer is to let her go then what was the point of feeling right about getting married to each other in the first place? We just needed to make a boy and then we could split? No, I believe that our marriage and family are important and need to be fought for. I am terrified to tell her because she has trusted previous impressions before.
You may want to keep your impression to yourself at this point, if it's not too late. That we have such impressions is something of which many of us are aware, but determining the meaning of these is anything but straightforward. It might not be wise to share with someone who is in the magical place where they could give undue weight to such an impression.

Fluffy mentioned one of the mantras of NOM is "go slow". The other one is "show love". I think it was RR who put the two together as "love wins the long game". Now is the time to show your love to your wife in all the best ways you know how. She needs that reassurance that your disaffection is towards the church only, and not her. Be the best husband you know how to be. The church does not deserve to be something so important as to break up a marriage, if the rest of the marriage foundation is strong.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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jfro18
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by jfro18 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:28 am

Hey Boozer,

Welcome to the group!

I think you've gotten some great advice here and it sounds like you've avoided the biggest mistake I made (and many others) of just not waiting to talk with DW until you've processed better... and so it just pours out in a jumbled, emotional mess.

Taking your time is a good thing and trying to sort out your thoughts before talking to her about disbelief in the church is important.

Feel free to post here when something pops up that's bothering you to try and get a handle on it before talking to your wife... I wish I had done that at the beginning.

The Mormon Expressions podcasts are great - I have only listened to a few of the top 25 listed, but they're really good at deconstructing some of the problems with Mormonism and do it in a way that's not boring. If you want some other great ones, Infants on Thrones have some great podcasts on the LDS essays I'd recommend if you want to spend a few hours on those issues (polygamy, Book o Abraham, seer stone, etc).

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Linked
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by Linked » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:03 am

Boozer wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:16 am
I am in an awkward position this morning that I am sure some of you have found yourselves in. There are 3 child baptisms in my ward today and I was asked to stand in the confirmation circle for one of them. I am currently not wearing my g's (that's only been since a week before conference) and my wife knows it. She knows that I am towards the church isn't true and that the priesthood is just an imagination. I want to be there for this friend, but I am starting to feel that baptizing kids at 8 is just a way to indoctrinate them. Im nervous about the whole after discussion that this is going to bring up, right now if it were my son we would probably be fighting over it because I wouldn't be comfortable with it right now.
There are a number of ways to go forward. Some people move away from church activity and participation fairly quickly, and would likely not participate. Others continue to act like faithful members for a long time for their reasons, often to keep important relationships together. I have been pretending for several years, and even baptized my son recently; my DW was just happy that my son was baptized. One day I hope to put more distance between me and the LDS church, but right now I feel like that would put more distance between me and my loved ones. Others who have gone thru a faith transition have not entered a chapel for years, and they seem pretty happy with it.

If you choose to pretend I would suggest you treat it like preserving your options in relationships. You can be public with your beliefs at any time, but once you are public you can't put that back in the bottle. But for many preserving the option becomes permanent, which sucks (I know from experience). Maintaining mentally/emotionally that you are always free to choose the other option, going public with your beliefs, can help you feel better and make more measured decisions.

Good luck with this going forward.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Boozer
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by Boozer » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:14 pm

Hey all, Thanks for the great advice. I have some updates that I would love to share.

On Sunday my wife agreed to read the Mormon stories essay on polygamy, and I used my chance to be an asshole and try to tear her down. Of course, we fought. The problem for me was that she says things like you can't trust anyone on the internet and then says the same thing to the churches essays that she doesn't believe everything they say. It was pretty much at that point that I called her wilfully ignorant...dun dun dun. It could've gone over worse. Later that night she asked me why I said that and I was able to say that I feel that it is willful ignorance to hear both sides agreeing to many of the same facts and to say you don't believe even tscc when they admit something that doesn't look great. The next morning I apologized and she took the apology right away, she said she understands why I could be having these problems because she felt awful while reading the accounts of the Partridge sisters, HMK, etc etc etc... She said that she felt like she was reading about Brian David Mitchell. She is still struggling with the way that I am feeling because the church gives her so many feel goods, and I understand that because I have clung onto those feel goods for dear life for years but now I don't think feel goods override accounts of grooming and coercion.

Yesterday we went to see "Breakthrough" (which I highly recommend. But, I am also particular because we live in the community where it happened and I even work at the hospital where he was first taken to). And I think that it was really good timing to go to that movie because it is weighing heavily on her so she keeps bringing it up and a lot of the time she just can't wrap her head around the thought that the Q15 are anything but loving shepherds that do nothing but exude comfort and love to all who are ready to hear. And we kept coming back to the fact that the reality of the world around me is that I do not see love, good feelings, good morals, good people, evidence of Gods love, the holy ghost, or spiritual growth as exclusive to our church and if it were really the case that it was the only true church and God desired all to be in tscc then you would at minimum expect to see those things in greater measure but nope, we don't. And then we sat through an hour and a half true story about a non-Mormon woman praying her son back to life.

Tonight we dove into it again and I made sure to follow the mantras "take it slow" and "don't be an asshole". We spent most of our discussion talking about a lot of the things that I take issue with such as white shirts, taking sacrament with our right hands, no beards, all the outward signs and rules that frankly I've always felt made us Pharisees but it hasn;t been until now that I've attributed that to the Q15. We take the polar opposite on all of it because she (being TBM) thinks that all of those things bring such peace and allow the spirit in and are all such good things. It was more difficult tonight because I got to hear a lot of the "you have a problem with everything" and "you've always had a bad attitude" train of thought. The infamous you aren't doing: it right, enough, having faith, etc etc. Which to her credit she was sure to explain to me that she wasn't trying to judge me. But I had to bring up the point of ok that's great that you feel those things and you feel a deep connection to all of that stuff but because I don't feel that way I am in the wrong?

I was listening to Mormon Stories podcast with Richard Bushman and I find it fascinating and confusing that someone who you can say knows more about JS both good and bad and yet finds a way to stay in. As we are working through this I can see that it is very hard for her to think of me not being a tbm, I already accepted a short while ago that the marriage could already be past saving when she had the emotional affair and we are currently in a stage where she expresses no love for me whatsoever and I don't have the strength to express love or keep trying to give her love when I know that I am just getting disgust and unacceptance in return. I feel like I am on an island, and I know that she felt that way (when I was emotionally unavailable and distant) but It is aggravating me because I never intentionally communicated to her that I didn't love her, I never intentionally did those things to her. I know deep down that she is hurt and trying to find healing but she is knowingly doing those things to me. I never fell in love with porn and wanted to be with porn instead of her or ever told her that the porn girls understood me better yet she has put that on me. I really just want to be happy together again, I honestly feel that I can forgive her for all of it but it wears me so thin to not even hear the words I Love You when I leave to go to work, or to not share a hug before bed. I would be destroyed to not be able to live my life with my son at home and see him every day but I am frustrated with her for not letting go of the past and hanging onto her hurt.

I think I will end here for now because I am quickly spiraling into rambling. Thanks for letting me put it all out there.

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Linked
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Re: New and Confused (so long its not true, one little woman...)

Post by Linked » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:27 pm

Hang in their Boozer, a lot of your experience really resonated with me. Especially the stuff about "you have a problem with everything" and "you've always had a bad attitude". I really internalized that when my DW said that to me as I was wrestling with the problems I saw related to the church before my shelf broke.

Hopefully you can keep the lines of communication with your DW open and not hostile. Good luck!
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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