NOM

Hey All,
I've been lurking here for a few months and have enjoyed many of the conversations so I thought I would join and introduce myself. I've was raised mormon in Colorado, had a rebellious youth, but ended up following the typical mormon path. I served a mission, went to BYU, got married, did med school, became a doctor. My wife and I has three kids and decided we have done our part multiplying and replenishing the earth. We now live in NV. I've never been quite orthodox Mormon in my views being pretty liberal politically, but I generally felt I had a testimony so it didn't bother me too much. However after several years of slowly accumulating items on my shelf things began to change. I finished my medical residency almost three years ago, moved to NV and within a few months of moving in was called to be a bishopric counselor. Ever since this calling the items on my shelf have been accelerating. I hadn't done much research on anything but I knew some of the general issues with Joe Smith, the BoM, blacks and the priesthood. For the past year I've been at the point where I haven't been able to give a traditional TBM testimony when I conduct fast Sunday's. I tried "doubting my doubts," recommitting to reading the BoM and going to the temple, etc. but I just kept getting more jaded. Then a few months ago I was "guided by the spirit" to do some research on the word of wisdom which eventually led me to mormonthink. Which I knew some of the issues but when put all together it immediately broke my shelf. So here I am several months later still the bishopric, trying to figure what I do next. I've read the CES letters, FAIRs response, and Rough Rolling Stone. I dont know where to go from here, I've contemplated asking to be released but dont know if the drama that would cause is worth it, but I also feel like a fraud sitting up on the stand every Sunday. My wife and I have talked some things over and she is supportive and has many doubts but here entire social network is mormon so I dont think she would leave and I'm not eve sure if I want to leave the church entirely at this point. Anyways thanks for reading my rant. It was nice to actually write some of my story down. I'm looking forward to getting to know the NOM community, thanks!

Welcome!!

It sounds like you're doing everything right- taking it slow and thinking things through before making any decisions... as crazy as it sounds, most people (myself included) do not handle that initial shock so well.

I've yet to find more than a few people who have had their shelves break and then find a way to put it back together, but depending on your situation you can always do a slow fade and kind of start pulling back a bit here and there until getting released won't be a huge problem.

But either way - hope you post a lot and stick around. I've found this board to be a tremendous help especially with being in a mixed faith marriage, so I hope you do too.

Curelom wrote: ↑

Wed May 08, 2019 11:49 pm

Hey All,
I've been lurking here for a few months and have enjoyed many of the conversations so I thought I would join and introduce myself.

We are glad you found us. We can certainly sympathize with your position. Many of us have been living in that position for a very long time. The LDS rabbit hole is very deep. Very, very deep. Every time I think I found the craziest part of it, something new will show up.

But, the real question is what to do about it. There are a wide variety of possible, and healthy responses. I am an unbeliever. I'm married to a delightful woman who remains entirely faithful. Because of this, I still participate in church and I am in a Young Men presidency right now. I even hold a current temple recommend. There is no question that quite a lot of lying goes on during my temple recommend interviews. It's my own science experiement where I'm trying to find the ward or stake leader that can use the power of discernment and figure out my prevarication during temple recommend interviews and tithing settlement.

There is no single way to approach this. It's going to be heavily dependent on you family and social situation. But, you are allowed to be the kind of Mormon you want to be. I treat the LDS church like a really expensive hobby that my family and friends seem to love. It's like golf or sailing. It's expensive and takes up most of your nights and weekends. There is always something new you could be doing.

But, Tiger Woods will not come to your house and complain if you decide to take up a new hobby. That's where the differences with the church truly begin. I am not particularly open about my apostasy to my ward or my family. It simply won't improve things with them and I already get 95% of what I wanted to accomplish with unbelief. Do you have any plans with your new basis for moral judgement?

Welcome

Most of us here can quickly relate - you're in the thick of things currently. Let me give a 3 step process on where to go:

1) Talk about everything with your wife
2) Talk about everything with your wife
3) Talk about everything with your wife

We can offer support, ideas, experience, etc, but we're just random internet strangers. In my opinion, the most important thing you can do - no matter what happens next week, next month, next year or next decade - is be connected as spouses. If you're ever feeling lost, see step 1. If you ever feel angry, see step 2. If you don't know what's right, see step 3.

Other than that - feel free to come here to complain, research, and join the conversation.

jfro18 wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2019 5:04 am

Welcome!!

It sounds like you're doing everything right- taking it slow and thinking things through before making any decisions... as crazy as it sounds, most people (myself included) do not handle that initial shock so well.

I've yet to find more than a few people who have had their shelves break and then find a way to put it back together, but depending on your situation you can always do a slow fade and kind of start pulling back a bit here and there until getting released won't be a huge problem.

But either way - hope you post a lot and stick around. I've found this board to be a tremendous help especially with being in a mixed faith marriage, so I hope you do too.

Thanks, I think the slow fade may be the way to go for me. But we will see how things go.

Corsair wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2019 8:36 am

Curelom wrote: ↑

Wed May 08, 2019 11:49 pm

Hey All,
I've been lurking here for a few months and have enjoyed many of the conversations so I thought I would join and introduce myself.

We are glad you found us. We can certainly sympathize with your position. Many of us have been living in that position for a very long time. The LDS rabbit hole is very deep. Very, very deep. Every time I think I found the craziest part of it, something new will show up.

But, the real question is what to do about it. There are a wide variety of possible, and healthy responses. I am an unbeliever. I'm married to a delightful woman who remains entirely faithful. Because of this, I still participate in church and I am in a Young Men presidency right now. I even hold a current temple recommend. There is no question that quite a lot of lying goes on during my temple recommend interviews. It's my own science experiement where I'm trying to find the ward or stake leader that can use the power of discernment and figure out my prevarication during temple recommend interviews and tithing settlement.

There is no single way to approach this. It's going to be heavily dependent on you family and social situation. But, you are allowed to be the kind of Mormon you want to be. I treat the LDS church like a really expensive hobby that my family and friends seem to love. It's like golf or sailing. It's expensive and takes up most of your nights and weekends. There is always something new you could be doing.

But, Tiger Woods will not come to your house and complain if you decide to take up a new hobby. That's where the differences with the church truly begin. I am not particularly open about my apostasy to my ward or my family. It simply won't improve things with them and I already get 95% of what I wanted to accomplish with unbelief. Do you have any plans with your new basis for moral judgement?

I'm still trying to figure out what I want my relationship to the church to look like. But I do know that the current situation isn't going to work for me for much longer. Being in a bishopric with a super TBM, by the book, gun-ho bishop is wearing on me. Being the lone voice of reason/dissent in ward councils/bishopric meeting is getting frustrating. I think right now I would be okay being in a lower profile calling while I try and figure things out, so I'm going to be thinking about that as my first step. In regards to where I stand on other items, I haven't really decided what I want to do about tithing, WoW, garments etc. Although the first thing I did was reduce the LD$ Inc tax from gross to net, I might consider lowering further if DW is in agreement.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2019 8:52 am

Welcome

Most of us here can quickly relate - you're in the thick of things currently. Let me give a 3 step process on where to go:

1) Talk about everything with your wife
2) Talk about everything with your wife
3) Talk about everything with your wife

We can offer support, ideas, experience, etc, but we're just random internet strangers. In my opinion, the most important thing you can do - no matter what happens next week, next month, next year or next decade - is be connected as spouses. If you're ever feeling lost, see step 1. If you ever feel angry, see step 2. If you don't know what's right, see step 3.

Other than that - feel free to come here to complain, research, and join the conversation.

Thanks I have been trying to do that. My DW has been supportive and let's me vent frequently. She is even in agreement with a good portion of my thoughts. She has been less TBM as well over the years and considers herself a feminist on many issues and has big problems with the patriarchy and lack of respect from bishoprics/other leaders that she has experienced herself when she was YW Pres. However I think my church bashing and complaining over the last month or so has taken over most of our conversations and she probably wants to talk about other things now.

Welcome to NOM! This place has been a sanctuary for me as I've been navigating my faith transition. I hope you can find sanity and solace here as needed. It sounds like you can relate to what Graey has shared on his Ward Council thread.

Welcome to the group!

I am in a very similar spot, having been a bishopric counselor for nearly 3 years now. My shelf was in the process of crumbling when I was called into the bishopric and at the time I took as some sort of sign that the research I was doing was good, that it would somehow enable me to serve more effectively.

What I have found is that is it just... exhausting. My shelf is 99% gone. I hold on to the teachings of love and acceptance found in the New Testament, but that is all I've got. It really does make conducting sacrament meeting tricky, trying to find something acceptable to say that let's me feel like I still have some amount of integrity.

I struggle with tithing and garments. DW is... patient, but not really understanding. She is the definition of TBM, despite admitting that there is much that doesn't add up.

I don't have any recommendations beyond what has already been said. Most of us here are still trying to work through this process as well.

We're glad to have you!

Welcome! I can understand not wanting to be in a demanding calling when you stop believing. I like the avatar, Its a Curelom!

Welcome. This place is a great landing spot.

I am in Nevada. Carson City so if you are in the area shoot me a message.

Glad you found us, Curelom. It sounds like your wife is pretty reasonable and I predict you'll find something that works for both of you after the major roller coaster hills are behind you.

Good luck and keep posting!

Welcome. It's tough to decide what to do when confronted with a deluge of new information that makes you reconsider things that you might have never even thought to question. And as Corsair said, you can just keep digging and finding more layers if you're so inclined. It continues to be unsettling but also exciting.

I've been at this for several years now and have continued to participate in church, though I've gradually changed that nature of that participation as I've drifted ever further from orthodoxy. I imagine that having a high-profile calling would further complicate things. Like you. I still haven't decided exactly where I want to land. Good luck.

That's exactly what I pictured a curelom to look like!

BriansThoughtMirror wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2019 6:49 pm

That's exactly what I pictured a curelom to look like!

Agreed, maybe Geroge Lucas was inspired by the BoM
If you want to turn your pet into a curelom they sell this at walmart.com...it looks very "useful to man"

Greetings Curelom. Welcome to the rabbit hole. We have hot drinks of your choice to share.

Two bits of advice I would have.

1. Don't let the church take over your life. Even as a post Mormon, it is easy to fall into the trap of being soo obsessed with how badly you let yourself be taken in that the church is still running your life, even if you are no longer a believer. To some degree it is a natural part of a faith crisis, but you don't want to let it destroy your relationships. If you frustrations with the chuch are monopolizing your conversations with your spouse, then it may be time to take a break. Spend time with your family where the church is not involved at all. Part of developing healthy boundries is also developing how much mental effort your are willing to give the church and to let go of the anger.

2. If you feel you can't handle being in the bishopric, use your family and career as leverage. Let the bishop know that you have a young family and a new career and they have to come first for you. Ask to be released so you can focus on those who need you the most. No need to even bring up your doubts. Most people will respect that. You can use that to help to slowly fade away from the ward. The less they know, the less likely there will be drama.

Curelom wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2019 8:10 pm

If you want to turn your pet into a curelom they sell this at walmart.com...it looks very "useful to man"

Ha! Indeed it does!

græy wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2019 2:52 pm

... trying to find something acceptable to say that let's me feel like I still have some amount of integrity.
...

How are you defining integrity? Honestly reading all sources, and being open to changing your viewpoint when given new information = integrity to me.

In any event - I'm sure it is all directed by God - some poor lost soul will be going to a bishopric member for help with their faith crisis, and guess who the best person just might be to help them through it

Angel wrote: ↑

Fri May 10, 2019 10:39 am

How are you defining integrity? Honestly reading all sources, and being open to changing your viewpoint when given new information = integrity to me.

In any event - I'm sure it is all directed by God - some poor lost soul will be going to a bishopric member for help with their faith crisis, and guess who the best person just might be to help them through it

I simply mean that I can't talk about Joseph Smith, the restoration, modern prophets, or much of our current "doctrine" in the way most active TBM (95% of our ward) would expect. It would either have to be disruptive, or be a lie (loss of integrity). So I follow the mantra of not saying anything at all when I have nothing nice to say.

I do speak about service, charity, never giving up, and forgiveness. Things that I feel absolutely have value. Those are things I can talk about and not feel like I'm lying.

That said, I am open about my changing viewpoints if/when I am asked and I'm in the appropriate place to really discuss it. Sacrament/Ward Council meetings are not places for safe or open discussion. Whatever they were meant to be, they are echo chambers for faithful perspectives, and nothing more.

græy wrote: ↑

Fri May 10, 2019 12:01 pm

I simply mean that I can't talk about Joseph Smith, the restoration, modern prophets, or much of our current "doctrine" in the way most active TBM (95% of our ward) would expect. It would either have to be disruptive, or be a lie (loss of integrity). So I follow the mantra of not saying anything at all when I have nothing nice to say.

I do speak about service, charity, never giving up, and forgiveness. Things that I feel absolutely have value. Those are things I can talk about and not feel like I'm lying.

That said, I am open about my changing viewpoints if/when I am asked and I'm in the appropriate place to really discuss it. Sacrament/Ward Council meetings are not places for safe or open discussion. Whatever they were meant to be, they are echo chambers for faithful perspectives, and nothing more.

It is frustrating that there is no place in church to have open conversations. I know Cody and Leah from a retreat - they were recently ex'd and a big part of that was the support group they formed... We have a 'support' group in my stake too ... They had a Sunday on missionary work, reaching out to in-actives etc. and I may have upset a few people with some comments about how the church was supporting people vs. our "unofficial" group... not sure where it crosses the line between calling someone "inactive" vs. calling them "apostate".

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/young-family/

The big difference between the early apostles - doubting Thomas, Peter who denied Christ, could not walk on water, could not always heal people, could not stay awake one hour... betrayal... is that the mistakes of the original apostles were recorded and acknowledged. Their example of repenting, admitting mistakes, asking for direction and changing paths is what makes hearing from them so refreshing.

The current apostles (if you can call them that) refuse to admit mistakes - policies are changed, but not because of a mistake - it is the unrepentant dishonest Pharisee type personalities that really aggravate. I think I would not have much of a problem at all with everyone if there was open communication, repentance, apologies etc.