I'm afrayed . . .

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Abinidied
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I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Abinidied » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:54 pm

Sheesh! Right out of the gate, I spelled Abinadi wrong in my user name with no way to change it on this forum. Off to a great start!

I chose Abinadied as my user name very purposefully. Abinadi was by far my favorite BofM character. In fact, from the time I was a small child, I was quite mesmerized with Arnold Frieberg’s interpretation of him. I have viewed his depiction of a frail old man (from the neck up at least – seems to be propotionally over built below the neck) as a profound representation of the power of wisdom that comes with age. For me, when my shelf came crashing down, Abinadi died in a very powerful way and not at the hands of King Noah et al. He didn’t pass away into exaltation but rather passed from truth to fiction. He represents my transformation from believing (really nothing more than hoping) the church was true, to discovering it’s doctrines were covered in duct tape after being patched up. I cannot see the Book of Mormon as anything more than a book of fiction comparable to the Lord of the Rings trilogy which, to my knowledge, has never been claimed to be the Word of God.

My story is similar to others. Grew up all in. In my youth, I served in Aaronic Priesthood presidencies and as Seminary president. I sowed some oats for a couple of years until I discovered all my oat-friends were on missions so I decided to repent and do the same. I married in the temple, over-lorded the Young Mens program for over 20 years, including Stake YM first councilor and then Stake YM president. I also served as a Stake mission prep teacher, first councilor in bishopric, gospel doctrine teacher, and recently, a very short cameo on the High Council. I say cameo simply because it felt more like an emeritus appointment to thank me for my life-long contribution by making me a jr. member of the council. I say short because in 4 months I only attended 1 meeting before dropping an email to the Stake President requesting a release which he graciously accepted without further questions. I’m very grateful he was so respectful.

How do I feel about all this? I apologize as I may wax poetic in my description. It’s just the way I like to express powerful emotions like say . . . trauma (I know trauma is not an emotion so don’t call me on it - I just feel like the word describes so deeply what I’m going through).

Most of the time, I feel my most sacred trust has been broken by those who should have been last to break it. Like most of those transitioning out, I cannot unsee that breach. I feel as though the brethren knowingly shut the windows of Heaven on me. For many years now, I felt as a moth drawn to the flame beyond the glass, bouncing off the window pains (misspelled on purpose) trying to reach the light all the while getting pretty worn out and beaten up. Then the light revealed itself once I began to look past it and I saw that the light source was rather odd. It wasn’t the glorious, everlasting glow of the Celestial Kingdom I was expecting to see, but seemed rather more like some guys dressed in suits shining a flashlight in my eyes blinding me to everything else. Once it became clear that what I was seeing seemed more real than what I had always been taught, I braced myself for a collision for there was nothing I wanted more than to break through the glass and confront these guys. Truly, I felt violated by those I trusted most – not the locals, but the corporate execs and leadership at the head of the church.

I also began to recognize that the doctrine of agency that I feel was so repeatedly force fed members my whole life was stripped away from me. As I recall, losing my agency started in primary where I was ‘encouraged’ to bear my testimony starting with, “I know the church is true.” I did not know that. So. Every time I publicly prayed, bore testimony, pronounced blessings, taught lessons, I was felt I was lying. I got quite used to it and thought it was what we were supposed to do. What I do know now is this repetition salted-with the peer pressure, from family, friends, and leadership shaped my agency to better fit the churches agenda, not mine. Sorry if you are a believing member – it’s just the way I see it now – I truly admire and respect your ability to find a way to stay connected to the church - even spiritually connected. I feel like agency is offered under very strict controls. The message seems loud and clear, if you don’t choose the church, you may find yourself sacrificing family members, friends, and basically, (where I live), everybody I know. Are we free to choose? It doesn’t seem so. Truly, who wouldn’t fight or fake it to be with those they love? It seems like a pretty high ransom to pay. For so many years I stayed for that reason alone, parking everything on the shelf until the shelf came crashing down. Everything I parked up there was pretty heavy and I happened to be standing right under it when broke. It hurt like a bugger. Still does every time I think of it.

A big crack in my shelf were the church essays. I’ve been following apologists for years hoping but never finding adequate answers to what looked to be very big doctrinal mishaps. So I started digging. The CES letter brought me to my knees (nope – not in an attitude of prayer – I was way too angry for that, then.) I’ve calmed down and accepted it for what it is and am very grateful for a lot of good folks and the church for providing a great place with high moral, ethical (I’m stretching a bit here), and socially rich components for my family to grow in. Sure wished I could have chose it myself and family rather than feeling it was imposed on me without room for the slightest deviation. At least that’s been my experience. My wife came home just yesterday from church and said the RS teacher expounded on the concept that there can be no fence sitters in this church. You are either all in or out. But aren't we are all fence sitters to some degree? I see it that way as I think there are very few members who don’t say, “That will all be sorted out in the spirit-world . . .” indicating at least to me, that there are doctrines and history that just doesn’t make sense no matter how we parse it. It was my go-to phrase for most of my adult life in the church. I doubt I’m certainly not alone in thinking we all have doubts whether we publically admit it or not (does that sound like I'm doubting my doubts? Weird).

As it stands, I have flown away from the windows of Heaven in my own way. I have stopped attending my meetings, asked and was granted an exit from High Council, no longer home teach or accept callings, and I don’t pay tithing. Mostly, I can’t face the members, many of whom have had my hands placed on their heads offering up blessings of health, hope, and countless rewards from Heavenly Father (whom I pretended I was speaking for). Currently, they think I am on ‘sick’ leave with some health issues (partial truth – something I learned how to do from the church :) I’m at a place where I cannot continue the pretense. If I lose family members, (my own brothers and sisters, precious Mom, and countless relatives), then I guess that is my lot in life for I can see no way forward but to sever my connection and hope for the best. It seems a radical move but the thought of walking into the chapel and hearing and seeing the members I love still blindly (in my view) drinking from the fountain of strict and unwavering obedience, I just cannot set foot in what used to feel so much like home. Damn. I'm in a tight spot. Luckily, most of my kids and their spouses have moved away from activity and my wife (who still attends) and I are very much on the same page so I have it much easier than many. I am now looking to replace that which I expect to lose in the next few weeks as I’m going to be publicly (at least to the Bishop) declaring what I’m going through. I’m reaching out for support to replace some very acute emptiness. It’s is how I landed here.

This is the first time I’ve commented on any forum or podcast, but feel a need to do more than just read about or listen to what so many like me are saying and feeling. I hunger for a new, more accepting connection and new friends. A humble thanks to all and I look forward to getting to know you better.
Last edited by Abinidied on Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cum omnia defecerunt, ludere mortuis. (When all else fails, play dead.)
--Red Green

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wtfluff
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by wtfluff » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:16 pm

Image
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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RubinHighlander
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:21 pm

Welcome NOM brother!

You have traveled a long and weary road with many ob-stacles, with tales, wonderful to tell. I although you did not find the treasure you were originally seeking, still will you travel, until the day of your own salvation!

Image

I think you will find solace here as you continue your journey to figure out where you might land after all those years as a TBM. It's all covered here, from the deep dive down the rabbit hole of church history, to what music you can listen to and most importantly, what fine spirits you can partake of (so many awesome local breweries and distilleries behind the zion curtain).

Cheers!
Last edited by RubinHighlander on Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

Korihor
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Korihor » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:49 pm

Welcome, We hope you have found a place to rest from your labors.

I think you will find a lot of people here that can easily relate and commiserate with. I think you'll fit in just nicely.

Please share anytime you feel the desire, we love hearing what others have to say. Bless you on your journey.

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Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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Ghost
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Ghost » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:20 pm

Thanks for sharing your intro. I can identify with some of your experiences, and you described them well. It must be strange to go through a transition like this after having held some of the more significant leadership positions. I sometimes wonder how my interactions with fellow church members would change were I to be more open about my heterodoxy.

Welcome to the site.

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Abinidied
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Abinidied » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:10 am

RubinHighlander wrote:Welcome NOM brother!

You have traveled a long and weary road with many ob-stacles, with tales, wonderful to tell. I although you did not finding the treasure you were originally seeking, still will you travel, until the day of your own salvation!
Thanks for the welcome! I love it that you expanded on my 'O Brother, Where Art Thou' reference. I really hadn't considered how many possible refs from the movie might parallel my experience. I fully expect that one day, I'll look back and realize that for me, this transition is a 'tale wonderful to tell'. I think I'll watch it again (for the hunderdth time) R-U-N-N-O-F-T? Hilarious and one of my fav. spots in the movie. Thanks for the well-needed lift. It's a good shot in the arm of humour that reminds me to relax and take a breath as I work my way through this mess.
Last edited by Abinidied on Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cum omnia defecerunt, ludere mortuis. (When all else fails, play dead.)
--Red Green

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Abinidied
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Abinidied » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:18 am

YESSSSS! I figured out the quotes button! (I think) so I reposted what used to be in this message and tried to delete this message but it wouldn't delete as it said it was previously quoted on. Sorry for my first time message boarding ineptitude.
Last edited by Abinidied on Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Cum omnia defecerunt, ludere mortuis. (When all else fails, play dead.)
--Red Green

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RubinHighlander
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:20 am

Yes O'Brother is much watched and quoted around the Highlander house.

Other foundational and watched many time films include:
Raising Arizona
So I Married an Axe Murderer
Office Space
The Holy Grail
Pride and Prejudice (DW's fave)
The Wedding Singer
Hamlet (Mel Gibson version)

And of course: Rubin and Ed

Also, watch the first The Matrix movie. You'll relate a lot more to that one now as well.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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document
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by document » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:47 am

Thanks for the introduction.

I love introductions to NOM. Every story I read makes me feel a little more sane. Our friends in the church have a knack for making you question yourself constantly by questioning the reality you are discovering.

I hope you feel the same when you start participating here, that you enjoy the richness of our discussions and the embrace of this community. Welcome!

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Corsair
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Corsair » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:36 am

Abinidied wrote:Sheesh! Right out of the gate, I spelled Abinadi wrong in my user name with no way to change it on this forum. Off to a great start!
Seriously, message CaptainSalty if you want to change your user name. It's not intended to be a secret that I, Corsair, am the normal user version of the owner and admin of this site, CaptainSalty. Coming from a sysadmin background it is good policy to only act as the superuser when superuser abilities are needed. We are happy to have you here. Contact me if you really would like your name changed.

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Enoch Witty
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Enoch Witty » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:36 am

Welcome. I found your story powerful. Looking forward to reading more of your views and perspectives.

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Newme
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Newme » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:18 am

Abinidied wrote:... I feel like agency is offered under very strict controls. The message seems loud and clear, if you don’t choose the church, you may find yourself sacrificing family members, friends, and basically, (where I live), everybody I know. Are we free to choose? It doesn’t seem so. Truly, who wouldn’t fight or fake it to be with those they love? It seems like a pretty high ransom to pay. For so many years I stayed for that reason alone, parking everything on the shelf until the shelf came crashing down. Everything I parked up there was pretty heavy and I happened to be standing right under it when broke. It hurt like a bugger. Still does every time I think of it.
I've thought and felt similarly. It came to me very clearly when a bishop used his power to manipulate me and harassed me because I didn't worship church leaders as he believed I was supposed to. He denied he worshipped them yet he indeed did because he refused to acknowledge that they could make mistakes. Most bishops I've had were great - but that one has helped many see the evils of the church very clearly. Maybe it's a blessing in the long run.
My wife came home just yesterday from church and said the RS teacher expounded on the concept that there can be no fence sitters in this church. You are either all in or out. But aren't we are all fence sitters to some degree? I see it that way as I think there are very few members who don’t say, “That will all be sorted out in the spirit-world . . .” indicating at least to me, that there are doctrines and history that just doesn’t make sense no matter how we parse it. It was my go-to phrase for most of my adult life in the church.
Agreed. Generally, the most healthy way is the "fence sitter" moderate in all things- approach. The scripture that states not to be luke warm, IMO, is more about addressing one's own personal truths - not numbing oneself to feelings (as is so common with alcohol or other legal or illegal drugs). We tend to have plenty of drama and extremes in our thoughts and feelings. I suppose that if you go extreme either bi-polar extreme, eventually you'll hit rock bottom of that extreme and will naturally move toward the opposite. And I think sometimes that's the way that learning happens, but I believe that if you live more consciously (with both faith and reason) then moderation ( the middle way) is the best, but "narrow way" that few find. I think it's rare because most cannot pick up and handle BOTH faith and reason.
As it stands, I have flown away from the windows of Heaven in my own way. I have stopped attending my meetings, asked and was granted an exit from High Council, no longer home teach or accept callings, and I don’t pay tithing. Mostly, I can’t face the members, many of whom have had my hands placed on their heads offering up blessings of health, hope, and countless rewards from Heavenly Father (whom I pretended I was speaking for). Currently, they think I am on ‘sick’ leave with some health issues (partial truth – something I learned how to do from the church :) I’m at a place where I cannot continue the pretense. If I lose family members, (my own brothers and sisters, precious Mom, and countless relatives), then I guess that is my lot in life for I can see no way forward but to sever my connection and hope for the best. It seems a radical move but the thought of walking into the chapel and hearing and seeing the members I love still blindly (in my view) drinking from the fountain of strict and unwavering obedience, I just cannot set foot in what used to feel so much like home. Damn. I'm in a tight spot. Luckily, most of my kids and their spouses have moved away from activity and my wife (who still attends) and I are very much on the same page so I have it much easier than many. I am now looking to replace that which I expect to lose in the next few weeks as I’m going to be publicly (at least to the Bishop) declaring what I’m going through. I’m reaching out for support to replace some very acute emptiness. It’s is how I landed here.

This is the first time I’ve commented on any forum or podcast, but feel a need to do more than just read about or listen to what so many like me are saying and feeling. I hunger for a new, more accepting connection and new friends. A humble thanks to all and I look forward to getting to know you better.
They say that "truth is in perspective" - you can see the same thing and from different angles will look very different. To some, it may seem you've flown away from the windows of Heaven - but maybe from another perspective, you've gotten closer to Heaven and a truth that is a more sure foundation.

I know it's so tough to be surrounded by people with whom you feel pressured to be a certain way. They're good people but you know deep down (because maybe you used to be similar) that their love is very conditional. They've been taught to fear "apostates" - not too different to the pharasees who feared Jesus because he conflicted with the religious bs at the time. It's difficult to not take it personally - especially if you've ever been verbally bullied by several at a time. Is it better to speak up - or does it just back fire? In the short run, it seems to backfire, but in the big picture, I don't know. I think that of all times, at least for me, now is when I need the spirit most - to guide me... not that I only trust in emotional reasoning. I also value logic and reason - but I see harmony with that and intuition.

I hope you feel you're among friends here. We're going through similar things.

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Vlad the Emailer
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Vlad the Emailer » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:29 am

Hello Abinidied, I love the user name and am glad you decided to join us. Like Document, I especially like reading introductions. I like to learn how others got to this place and how they're dealing with their particular fallout.

A few things particularly caught my attention in your intro.
As I recall, losing my agency started in primary where I was ‘encouraged’ to bear my testimony starting with, “I know the church is true.” I did not know that. So. Every time I publicly prayed, bore testimony, pronounced blessings, taught lessons, I was felt I was lying. I got quite used to it and thought it was what we were supposed to do. What I do know now is this repetition salted-with the peer pressure, from family, friends, and leadership shaped my agency to better fit the churches agenda, not mine.
I think this is an extremely understated point. The psychological game we're encouraged to play upon ourselves is transparent from outside observers and very much encourages the "cult" talk. This, in fact, reminds me that I once thought up an untestimony. In my mind it went to the "tune" of the standard children's testimony and started out, "I'd like to bear my testimony, but I don't know the church is true. But since they want me to lie about it I guess that's what I'll do.....". I had the whole thing made up, but don't remember the rest.
A big crack in my shelf were the church essays. I’ve been following apologists for years hoping but never finding adequate answers to what looked to be very big doctrinal mishaps.
Ah yes, the lovely world of Mopologetics. When I still almost wished somehow to still believe I was very disappointed to see the corp publish those apologetic responses as the essays. It's one thing for a stubborn, self deluded TBM to come up with, or believe, rationalizations and excuses like that, but for the church to take ownership of same and actually present it as adequate responses is beyond insane, IMO. As painful as the experience is, since Mormonism published it, I wish all of Mormondom to receive it! Too bad the essays have been kept so quiet. I've even heard of members claiming someone hacked into lds.org and put those anti-Mormon essays in there!

Anyway, welcome. I'm glad you have your family on board with you. That's huge!
Last edited by Vlad the Emailer on Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest. - Anonymous

Say what you want about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying. - Kurt Vonnegut

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Newme
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Newme » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:33 am

Vlad the emailer wrote: This, in fact, reminds me that I once thought up an untestimony. In my mind it was stated to the "tune" of the standard children's testimony and started out, "I'd like to bear my testimony, but I don't know the church is true. But since they want me to lie about it I guess that's what I'll do.....". I had the whole thing made up, but don't remember the rest.
Or the little one who misparroted the whispered testimony: "I want to bear my testimony. I know this church is blue."

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Abinidied
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Abinidied » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:46 pm

Corsair wrote:
Abinidied wrote:Sheesh! Right out of the gate, I spelled Abinadi wrong in my user name with no way to change it on this forum. Off to a great start!
Seriously, message CaptainSalty if you want to change your user name
.

Nah thanks anyway. Maybe Joseph Smith spelled it wrong to begin with inasmuch as peering into a dark hat at a rock may have presented some grammatical challenges. I'll keep it as is because spit-shining my public persona to look good was something I did far too long in the church. I kinda like the idea that I'm just a regular, mistake-ridden hominid like everybody else and the spelling error reminds me just how o.k. that is.
Cum omnia defecerunt, ludere mortuis. (When all else fails, play dead.)
--Red Green

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Abinidied
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Abinidied » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:57 pm

Ghost wrote:Thanks for sharing your intro. I can identify with some of your experiences, and you described them well. It must be strange to go through a transition like this after having held some of the more significant leadership positions. I sometimes wonder how my interactions with fellow church members would change were I to be more open about my heterodoxy.
A comment like this might seem a small thing, but right now, it's big for me. In the past, I've had a pretty thick skin mostly putting all other needs ahead of my own and in the church, that's a whack of needs. Knowing there is someone out there who has walked a similar path is very much on point so a humble thanks for that. I hope that doesn't sound like I'm fishing for comments - not at all! Just wanted to say thanks.
Cum omnia defecerunt, ludere mortuis. (When all else fails, play dead.)
--Red Green

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Corsair
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Corsair » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:01 pm

Abinidied wrote:On another note, having never been part of a forum, might I ask how come my replies show up as separate messages when I view them. I see everyone else has a nice yellow box around the comment they are quoting. Is that just how it's formatted so it looks that way to me only? Sorry. I just need a little help getting started.
Message formatting is not hard, but it takes some experimentation to learn it at first. I recommend that you try some test posts in the "Test" forum on the main board. The posts there were for me to originally practice with posting, permissions, and formatting. I will probably get rid of it eventually, but you are welcome to play around there.

In short, when you quote someone, you can click the "double quotes" button on a message and it will show up in a post reply page for you. Part of the problem is that printing out the formatting codes will cause the formatting to appear, but not the codes themselves all of the time. In between the "[" and "]" square brackets you would have [ quote ] which starts the quote block and ending with [ /quote ]. Note that I added spaces around the square brackets so I can show the formatting

A quote block can be personalized with [ quote="some username" ] and you can put virtually any text in between the double quotes such as like this:
some really long name that is not a username on this forum wrote:Note that the word "wrote" is appended to the user name
Good luck and thank you for your contributions.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by MerrieMiss » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:30 pm

Welcome.
Abinidied wrote:I also began to recognize that the doctrine of agency that I feel was so repeatedly force fed members my whole life was stripped away from me. As I recall, losing my agency started in primary where I was ‘encouraged’ to bear my testimony starting with, “I know the church is true.” I did not know that. So. Every time I publicly prayed, bore testimony, pronounced blessings, taught lessons, I was felt I was lying. I got quite used to it and thought it was what we were supposed to do.
When I think back, I think this was the first item on my shelf as a primary child. I never did get used to the lying and I've spent my time in the church wondering one of two things: 1) Why have I not received the witness everyone else has? What am I doing wrong and what is wrong with me? and 2) I think everyone else is lying - but do they think they are?

I look forward to hearing more from you.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by MalcolmVillager » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:58 pm

Welcome O brother, where art thou?

I love that movie. Way too many quotes!

You are going to be a great addition to our ward!

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Abinidied
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Re: I'm afrayed . . .

Post by Abinidied » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:48 pm

Just want to say thanks to all. Great comments and sage advice salted with an attitude of normalcy - something that has seemed missing for me some time now, if that makes sense. A bit shell-shocked, but glad to be here. It feels like my hiking boots. Great fit.
Cum omnia defecerunt, ludere mortuis. (When all else fails, play dead.)
--Red Green

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