#I7 The Law of Tithing

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crossmyheart
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#I7 The Law of Tithing

Post by crossmyheart » Sun May 14, 2017 10:03 am

I rarely attend church and attend 2nd and 3rd hour even less. But attending with family from out of town. I even wore a dress.

No one argued net vs gross. Everyone who spoke were adamant that is is a full 10% of all income even gifts, etc.

Question was asked-What does the church do with the money? Lots of tears and unsubstantiated stories of all the good the church does in the world. Impoverished countries and all. We don't need government agencies because we have the United Order!

I didn't have it in me to speak up at all. But just had to share that the kool aid is still pretty strong even in a ward outside of Utah.

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: #I7 The Law of Tithing

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun May 14, 2017 12:53 pm

The prosperity gospel is alive and well here in Utah too. I managed to keep my mouth shut, but it took all the discipline I could muster.

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Corsair
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Re: #I7 The Law of Tithing

Post by Corsair » Sun May 14, 2017 1:47 pm

"In honor of Mother's Day, we would like to provide a few extra reasons for guilt and worry. So we will be preaching the doctrine of paying tithing on gross income and we will rely on you for unsubstantiated stories in support of this thesis."

Thoughtful
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Re: #I7 The Law of Tithing

Post by Thoughtful » Sun May 14, 2017 2:03 pm

We had a nuanced lesson on the history of tithing and implementation policies in church history. It was silent in there, it i think was news to everyone but me and the teacher. Then a former bishop jumped in and started arguing, and the teacher said, "hold up, you're jumping ahead to 1970." And then continued on. Ultimately it ended with several former bishops talking about how individual finances are complicated and varied, so you choose what 10% means to you and pay accordingly, whatever you feel is honest and right. I thought it was fantastic, but I think there were several seminary teachers and lifelong members in the room a bit befuddled at not knowing this history.

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Korihor
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Re: #I7 The Law of Tithing

Post by Korihor » Sun May 14, 2017 10:00 pm

Corsair wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 1:47 pm
"In honor of Mother's Day, we would like to provide a few extra reasons for guilt and worry. So we will be preaching the doctrine of paying tithing on gross income and we will rely on you for unsubstantiated stories in support of this thesis."
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crossmyheart
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Re: #I7 The Law of Tithing

Post by crossmyheart » Mon May 15, 2017 7:00 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 2:03 pm
We had a nuanced lesson on the history of tithing and implementation policies in church history. It was silent in there, it i think was news to everyone but me and the teacher. Then a former bishop jumped in and started arguing, and the teacher said, "hold up, you're jumping ahead to 1970." And then continued on. Ultimately it ended with several former bishops talking about how individual finances are complicated and varied, so you choose what 10% means to you and pay accordingly, whatever you feel is honest and right. I thought it was fantastic, but I think there were several seminary teachers and lifelong members in the room a bit befuddled at not knowing this history.
Wow A lesson like that would have kept me in the church a little longer. A little honesty goes a long way.

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redjay
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Re: #I7 The Law of Tithing

Post by redjay » Thu May 18, 2017 5:43 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 2:03 pm
We had a nuanced lesson on the history of tithing and implementation policies in church history. It was silent in there, it i think was news to everyone but me and the teacher. Then a former bishop jumped in and started arguing, and the teacher said, "hold up, you're jumping ahead to 1970." And then continued on. Ultimately it ended with several former bishops talking about how individual finances are complicated and varied, so you choose what 10% means to you and pay accordingly, whatever you feel is honest and right. I thought it was fantastic, but I think there were several seminary teachers and lifelong members in the room a bit befuddled at not knowing this history.



None of that when I was coming up - it was gross, fire insurance, you'll be blessed etc.

First major disagreement of the year was me asking the wife to pay on net - she responded, 'we've always paid on gross, that's what we've been taught, I've never heard you can pay on net'.

In about 3 nanoseconds I forwarded a quotation from LDS org to her ipad, saying it was up to us: gross or net. Needless to say it's now net. But there's an awful lot of ignorant people out there and the church has no incentive to advertise net as an option.


While I'm ranting. I changed jobs a little over a year ago: I was working as a consultant making good money. My industry sank which motivated a move into academia - I started on the bottom pay bracket and lost about 70% of my previous income, while paying tithing (what does that say about the prosperity gospel)?

We now get by, by being frugal. And I like my new job. However, I quit paying tithing reasoning I had more need of the money than the church.

I need no assistance, life is OK in the medium term; however, if I followed the counsel of the church - I would be paying tithing, living hand to mouth, when something broke, I would be in debt or on church assistance. I am a middle aged professional, as is my wife, we have 5 degrees between us, we live in a high tax country: WE DO NOT NEED TO LIVE IN CONSTANT FINANCIAL STRESS (and now I don't pay tithing, I don't live in financial stress). I will not let the church take away my self-reliance and my personal pride while they build another temple that lies half used.

Next year if I can get Mrs RJ to pay on surplus - we will go on vacation. We will live like most normal, sensible people in our country who are not bleeding money to a religious organisation.
At the halfway home. I'm a full-grown man. But I'm not afraid to cry.

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nibbler
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Re: #I7 The Law of Tithing

Post by nibbler » Thu May 25, 2017 6:25 pm

At one point tithing on gross was church policy. This is from the General Handbook of Instruction No 19 (1963):
TITHES
Who Should Pay Tithing: Church members should pay one-tenth of their interest (income) annually into the tithing funds of the Church. (D&C 119:4.)

Those without income (including wives who have no separate income from their husbands), and those entirely dependent on relief, are exempt from the payment of tithing.

Missionaries on full-time missions are not required to pay tithing unless they have some personal income other than the monthly allotments sent to them for support. Additional personal income should be tithed. Whether full-time missionaries pay fast offerings is left to the judgment of the missionary himself.

What Is a Tithe? A tithe is one-tenth of a wage earner's gross income; a tithe is one-tenth of a professional man's income after deducting standard business expenses; a tithe is one-tenth of a farmer's income after deducting standard business operating expenses. A farmer should not include as a standard business operating expense the produce which is used to sustain his family. A tithe is one-tenth of an individual's interest.
The emphasis (italics and bold) are in the original document. The word "gross" appears in bold.

This was a short lived policy. I don't believe previous handbooks explicitly said to pay on gross and subsequent handbooks moved to the "See D&C 119" model, but the leaders felt strongly enough about paying on gross at one point that they made it the church policy.

In lessons I only ever heard payment on gross was acceptable. We even had moments in class where someone would bring in a mock pay stub and walk members through the math, make explicit statements about how paying on net was incorrect. But they were only teaching what they had been taught and in light of payment on gross being policy at one point it kinda makes sense. Some leaders are still stuck in 1963. We may even have a few Sunday School manuals that haven't been updated since then. Whateves.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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