Here is a real Prophecy, the Noah Sexton letter

This is for discussions of the correlated lessons from Gospel Doctrine, Priesthood, and Relief Society.
Post Reply
User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 839
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Here is a real Prophecy, the Noah Sexton letter

Post by deacon blues » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:24 pm

I wish I had presented this last week, and it may sound snarky or like it would be considered an ambush, but why isn't Joseph Smith's letter of Jan. 4, 1833 to Noah Sexton (editor of the Rochester Observer) in the D&C? I thought of it when I read D&C 1:38. The last paragraph indicates to me that it is exactly what D&C 1:38 would apply to. It reads:


".....And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nations. Pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of this Land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have compiled with the requisitions of the new covenant have already commenced gathering together to Zion which is in the State of Missouri. Therefore I declare unto you the warning which the lord has commanded me to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my maker are upon me and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow men than their eternal salvation. Therefore fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his judgement is come. Repent Ye, Repent Ye, and embrace the everlasting Covenant and flee to Zion before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken fulfilled. Remember these things, call upon the Lord while he is near and seek him while he may be found is the exhortation of your unworthy servant Joseph Smith Jr. (Joseph Smith Papers: Documents page 16)

This letter was written a week after the more famous "Civil War Prophecy", which may or may not be addressed in a later lesson. It was addressed to Noah Sexton, the editor of a Rochester newspaper.But it appears to me that this letter is a more definitive statement than the Section 87 (the Civil War Prophecy) and it has a fairly definite deadline, that is before the passing of all those then living on the earth.
God is Love. God is Truth

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 839
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Here is a real Prophecy, the Noah Sexton letter

Post by deacon blues » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:50 am

deacon blues wrote:I wish I had presented this last week, and it may sound snarky or like it would be considered an ambush, but why isn't Joseph Smith's letter of Jan. 4, 1833 to Noah Sexton (editor of the Rochester Observer) in the D&C? I thought of it when I read D&C 1:38. The last paragraph indicates to me that it is exactly what D&C 1:38 would apply to. It reads:


".....And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nations. Pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of this Land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have compiled with the requisitions of the new covenant have already commenced gathering together to Zion which is in the State of Missouri. Therefore I declare unto you the warning which the lord has commanded me to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my maker are upon me and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow men than their eternal salvation. Therefore fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his judgement is come. Repent Ye, Repent Ye, and embrace the everlasting Covenant and flee to Zion before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken fulfilled. Remember these things, call upon the Lord while he is near and seek him while he may be found is the exhortation of your unworthy servant Joseph Smith Jr. (Joseph Smith Papers: Documents page 16)

This letter was written a week after the more famous "Civil War Prophecy", which may or may not be addressed in a later lesson. It was addressed to Noah Sexton, the editor of a Rochester newspaper.But it appears to me that this letter is a more definitive statement than the Section 87 (the Civil War Prophecy) and it has a fairly definite deadline, that is, before the passing of all those then living on the earth.
God is Love. God is Truth

User avatar
Enoch Witty
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Here is a real Prophecy, the Noah Sexton letter

Post by Enoch Witty » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:27 am

deacon blues wrote:for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken fulfilled.
You're forgetting the obvious answer here: The Three Nephites. (And John, I guess)

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 2193
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Here is a real Prophecy, the Noah Sexton letter

Post by Corsair » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:14 am

Enoch Witty wrote:
deacon blues wrote:for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken fulfilled.
You're forgetting the obvious answer here: The Three Nephites. (And John, I guess)
Having immortal beings around will really devaluate the power of a prophecy based on some generation still being alive during its fulfillment.

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 2240
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Here is a real Prophecy, the Noah Sexton letter

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:52 pm

Thanks Deacon, I had not read that. If people would actually read the "Civil War" prophecy they would notice that it gets most of the facts wrong, apart from talking about a war starting in South Carolina. Like the Sexton letter, D&C 87 predicts the great final war that will usher in the second coming. Also, Joseph just happened to receive this revelation at the same time there were stirrings of the South rebelling in 1832, and just a couple of days after the Painesville Telegraph, which we know Joseph read because he wrote editorials in it, published an article about it which, if I remember correctly, is a letter threatening an uprising that was written a body of men in... South Carolina.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

User avatar
Vlad the Emailer
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:03 pm
Location: Lower Midwest

Re: Here is a real Prophecy, the Noah Sexton letter

Post by Vlad the Emailer » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:54 pm

Enoch Witty wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:27 am
deacon blues wrote:for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken fulfilled.
You're forgetting the obvious answer here: The Three Nephites. (And John, I guess)
Exactly my thought. I've not read that in an apologetic for the "prophesy", but that's the answer I would expect an apologetic to throw out there. They have to have something, so any excuse or rationalization is as good as another.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest. - Anonymous

Say what you want about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying. - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 839
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Here is a real Prophecy, the Noah Sexton letter

Post by deacon blues » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:51 am

I'm going to revisit this and make my point in a different way. Why was D&C 87 included in scripture and the not Joseph Smith's letter to Noah Sexton? The two basic views are probably 1- that's what God said to do, and 2- The general authorities of the time (A-inspired or B- not- take your pick) decided to do it that way and nobody is going to change it nowadays, because it's now a tradition in the church.

I tend to go with #2. However, I am also concerned that the heading to the section, although it gives historical background about South Carolina threatening secession, does not give any explanation why D&C was not in the 1833 or 1835 versions of the D&C. It was published in the P of GP in 1851, and finally in the D&C in 1876.

The crux of the question still, to me is, was Joseph Smith speaking as a prophet or a man.(Remember, Joseph, claiming authority from Jesus, says the Lord commanded him to write to Sexton) It appears the people who decide that for practical purposes are 1- the GA's or 2- your conscience.

Again I go with #2.
God is Love. God is Truth

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 2193
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Here is a real Prophecy, the Noah Sexton letter

Post by Corsair » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:08 pm

The base story of D&C 87 is inspiring in basic, broad strokes. Joseph Smith appears to prophesy the Civil War 28 years early. Members can be super excited about this without having to expend very much attention or scrutiny. As long as the institutional church simply keeps it in the canon and does not examine it closely, the members will simply build their own cultural hype for it. The D&C continues to keep sections 61 (Satan owns the waters), 77 (young earth creationism), 116 (Garden of Eden in Missouri), and 129 (shake hands with spirits) in the scriptures and those make 87 look positively normal by comparison.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest