#7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

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deacon blues
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#7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by deacon blues » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:11 am

It's Stake conference/vacation this week, so I won't be attending Gospel Doctrine for another week (and probably not then), but I like the discussion that has been generated here, so I'm going to stay with the schedule. The real source of this lesson is the 4th Article of Faith which many of us memorized in primary. The main point of the lesson is pointing out the LDS version of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost, is special, and better than any other type. I'm reminded of a poem, "Abou Ben Adhem" by Leigh Hunt. Which suggests a different perspective, as does the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25. Just food for thought.
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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: #7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:53 am

Ah my favorite topic. While faith, repentance, baptism by immersion, remission of sins, and the laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost may seem to be biblically generic and widespread doctrine, the sequence of the principles is the intellectual property of Campbellite minister Walter Scott. Scott was hired by Campbell to gain converts to his restorationist sect throughout the western reserve and was very successful in 1827 using his five finger mnemonic of these principles to teach children who would then be told to invite their parents back for that evenings preaching. Over 3000 joined the Campbellites between 1827 and 1830 with this message. Its simplicity resonated with the people. The early versions of the articles of faith were written up by Parley Pratt who was associated with Scott and Campbell in the reformed baptist movement. Hence the use of the same sequence and unique phraseology when presenting the first principles and ordinances.

Sources: "Walter Scott (clergyman)" wikipedia
Mark Staker's book "Hearken O Ye People"
Daymon Smith's "A Cultural History of The Book of Mormon' Volume 1"

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Corsair
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Re: #7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by Corsair » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:18 pm

Suppose you had an evangelical friend who was fully on board with faith, repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost in precisely that language. They were deeply congratulatory on the LDS conversion process that led people to Jesus through these first principles and ordinances in a generous, ecumenical way. Your evangelical friend also told about their personal faith, repentance, baptism, and Holy Spirit experience as their own profound conversion story. This all lead to their ongoing devotion to a local Evangelical Christian church..

How would a devout LDS believer react to this story? Could they accept this kind of faith journey? It has many of the elements of the LDS story, but it does not end up in the local Mormon ward. Would the idea of LDS "priesthood authority" make any sense to an Evangelical Christian? How do Evangelical Christians process the idea of a "one true church?"

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deacon blues
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Re: #7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by deacon blues » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:42 pm

I googled Walter Scott, clergyman and was fascinated by the Wikipedia article. Thanks for the reference. You are right, Walter Scott should have copyrighted the 4th article of faith.
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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: #7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:18 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:42 pm
I googled Walter Scott, clergyman and was fascinated by the Wikipedia article. Thanks for the reference. You are right, Walter Scott should have copyrighted the 4th article of faith.
It goes even deeper than that too, in Daymon Smith's book he talks about how Walter Scott preached about Adam living in a terrestrial state prior to the fall, Campbell preaches about the 3 degrees of glory, and Alexander Crawford also of the reformed baptists taught about the aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, all 3 years or so prior to the founding of our church. When Joseph came to Kirtland, the saints already beleived these things. The church was ready made for Joseph to take advantage of it seems.

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2bizE
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Re: #7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by 2bizE » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:25 pm

This is great stuff. I had though JS had just pulled the articles of faith out of a hat or out of his butt, but no, he stole them from PPP who stole them from the campbellites. Nice.
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ulmite
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Re: #7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by ulmite » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:36 pm

Someone in my ward piped up about his faith being an ofttimes difficult choice to make. Other comments going in the direction of "personal revelation, not what you hear over the pulpit" make me suspect a NOM or NOM-ish person, and some degree of a faith crisis. However, she/he is leaving on a mission soon (post-crisis decision as far as I can tell), and I don't want to angst by starting a conversation leading to my disbelief in the institution. Any ideas?

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deacon blues
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Re: #7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by deacon blues » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:44 pm

I am aware of some senior missionaries having their shelves break while on their missions. :(
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Corsair
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Re: #7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by Corsair » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:52 am

ulmite wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:36 pm
Someone in my ward piped up about his faith being an ofttimes difficult choice to make. Other comments going in the direction of "personal revelation, not what you hear over the pulpit" make me suspect a NOM or NOM-ish person, and some degree of a faith crisis. However, she/he is leaving on a mission soon (post-crisis decision as far as I can tell), and I don't want to angst by starting a conversation leading to my disbelief in the institution. Any ideas?
I'm not sure that you could or should do anything for this person. After our own faith transitions we all have to acknowledge how each person will have their own individual faith journey that is different than ours.

Are you close enough to this person to have a conversation with them? Could you ask how they dealt with some of this difficult parts of LDS history? Would there be the chance to ask how they would work with a promising investigator who suddenly runs across the CES Letter and politely but firmly decides to not continue with the missionaries?

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deacon blues
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Re: #7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by deacon blues » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:08 pm

I'd like to thank FFM again for his posts here. I've started reading the first Daymon Smith book, its very interesting. Thanks Five, for the references.
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Re: #7- The First Principles- Faith, etc.

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:16 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:08 pm
I'd like to thank FFM again for his posts here. I've started reading the first Daymon Smith book, its very interesting. Thanks Five, for the references.
Sure thing! Daymon's work is stellar.

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