How to have the talk
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dispirited
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:01 am
Re: How to have the talk
Tell him you just dont believe Joseph found a rock with words appearing out if it. You just can't get your head around how that works.
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MalcolmVillager
- Posts: 702
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Re: How to have the talk
This string is gold. Way to go all!
Any new NOMers should read this!
Any new NOMers should read this!
Re: How to have the talk
When I saw the post title, I wondered which talk, it was referring to, the sex talk with a kid or the religion talk with a spouse. Both fit the description, though the religion one is more frequently discussed here. Both of them, though suffer major flaw. Neither one is really about having the talk. Both should be part of perpetual examples of living and continued discussion.
Both suffer from another major flaw, the intention from the person desiring to have the talk often isn't pragmatic or reasonable. In the case of the sex talk, the parent wants to prevent the child from having sex. The better goal is to make sure the child has good information and a good basis from which to make good decisions. In the case of the religion talk, the desire is to have the spouse validate and agree with you. Or at a minimum for the spouse to understand you. These are pretty unrealistic desires. If the talk is needed in the first place, it's unlikely that the spouse will agree with and validate us. It's a high order to expect someone else to really understand, or vice versa, on something so personal and significant as a religious worldview. It's cool when it happens, but typically even in the best relationship people either connect shallowly on these things or find significant differences of perception. The better goal is to share with one's partner and to strengthen communication and reciprocal understanding. We need to enter such conversations with a strong commitment to validating and supporting one's partner and relationship, rather than expecting such in return.
With my wife and I, we got through it together because we talked a lot. Often we skirted the really touchy issues. Sometimes after a discussion I'd feel very frustrated because it seemed we were shying away from the important stuff. And we were. But, it was good and productive, though it took a long time. I made a strong effort to find points where we agreed and build upon those. I appreciated my wife's differing insights, often supportive of the Church, and recognized that though they didn't match my critical perception they were valid and often quite enlightening. I made an effort to recognize her for these insights and demonstrate appreciation.
On a practical note, there were a couple of settings that worked out quite well for our discussions. One was when we took walks together. There are some definite physical reasons why this environment works really well for challenging topics for a lot of people. Another one was a little bit the opposite, sitting together during long car rides. We'd have to be careful not to get too emotional or into too difficult of topics in this environment. These talks would usually be when we were traveling, with our kids in the back of the vehicle. They'd often listen in, though not usually engage, except when they got older. It was good for them, also. They got to see their parents demonstrating good relationship practices by discussing meaningful topics. They learned a lot about the issues, so when we left the Church it wasn't a surprise to them and they felt no need to linger.
There are lots of other great recommendations and insights already in this thread.
Both suffer from another major flaw, the intention from the person desiring to have the talk often isn't pragmatic or reasonable. In the case of the sex talk, the parent wants to prevent the child from having sex. The better goal is to make sure the child has good information and a good basis from which to make good decisions. In the case of the religion talk, the desire is to have the spouse validate and agree with you. Or at a minimum for the spouse to understand you. These are pretty unrealistic desires. If the talk is needed in the first place, it's unlikely that the spouse will agree with and validate us. It's a high order to expect someone else to really understand, or vice versa, on something so personal and significant as a religious worldview. It's cool when it happens, but typically even in the best relationship people either connect shallowly on these things or find significant differences of perception. The better goal is to share with one's partner and to strengthen communication and reciprocal understanding. We need to enter such conversations with a strong commitment to validating and supporting one's partner and relationship, rather than expecting such in return.
With my wife and I, we got through it together because we talked a lot. Often we skirted the really touchy issues. Sometimes after a discussion I'd feel very frustrated because it seemed we were shying away from the important stuff. And we were. But, it was good and productive, though it took a long time. I made a strong effort to find points where we agreed and build upon those. I appreciated my wife's differing insights, often supportive of the Church, and recognized that though they didn't match my critical perception they were valid and often quite enlightening. I made an effort to recognize her for these insights and demonstrate appreciation.
On a practical note, there were a couple of settings that worked out quite well for our discussions. One was when we took walks together. There are some definite physical reasons why this environment works really well for challenging topics for a lot of people. Another one was a little bit the opposite, sitting together during long car rides. We'd have to be careful not to get too emotional or into too difficult of topics in this environment. These talks would usually be when we were traveling, with our kids in the back of the vehicle. They'd often listen in, though not usually engage, except when they got older. It was good for them, also. They got to see their parents demonstrating good relationship practices by discussing meaningful topics. They learned a lot about the issues, so when we left the Church it wasn't a surprise to them and they felt no need to linger.
There are lots of other great recommendations and insights already in this thread.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
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Give It Time
- Posts: 1244
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:52 pm
Re: How to have the talk
A lot of great stuff on here. I don't think I have that much constructive to add, but a few droppings to add to consider. I don't know if your faith realignment is because of historical issues or doctrinal. I think it does make a difference in how you would approach the discussion. Historical issues are going to become the new cliche. With that new cliche comes several rich sources of information to which you can point out to your husband.
If your issues are doctrinal, then I think it gets stickier. So many of the doctrinal issues will be written off as cultural. For instance, if your issue is the church treats women unequally, ever since both women's meetings have been made a part of General Conference, that has opened up the possibility for any talk--even one delivered by a teenage girl--to be the source talk for a Sacrament Meeting talk or even a Priesthood lesson. So, any claims of not listening to women can truly be blamed on culture. However, the fact that I put the "even" twice in front of some key nouns speaks volumes and there's no real way to convincingly state your case without really delving into and picking apart the doctrines and that's when it gets really offensive for Mormons.
The advantage of the historical issues is they are well known and there are lots of materials to support him and you. The disadvantage to historical issues is I think Mormons consider them more easily discounted. The advantage with doctrinal issues is the church is what it is. Pretty much all the members are beginning to recognize the church isn't a comfortable place for everyone. The down side is our loved ones really do believe the church is true and love the church deeply. Discussing doctrinal issues will go nowhere good. The doubter can be viewed as fundamentally defective or the believer can have it pointed out to them that many of their beliefs are immoral. Just, no good options.
Then, we tend to not alter our behavior until, as you very well describe, our disaffection is quite old. We may attend less or feel less need to go to every meeting or relax how closely we obey the word of wisdom. This will, of course, place you on the radar of many Mormons, so, as you state, they know something is up. By this time the talk is merely confirming what they suspect or are trying to deny. So, you've been preparing him for this talk.
I never told my ex, fully what was going on. I was concerned it could cost me custody. My son knows, though, and I came out at work. The way I approached both situations was to tell them I no longer believed, my issues were doctrinal and, since I had no desire to destroy their testimony, I would not be initiating any discussions on the topic. I won't discuss it at work, because anything more than basic declaration of affiliation and a few acknowledgements of cultural impact are all that are allowed. I told my son I was open to questions, but would leave it up to him to determine the pace.
Your husband does deserve more information, but I do think leaving it up to the receiver of this information to determine the pacing is important.
A humorous result for me is I told someone I no longer believe, that my issues were doctrinal, that the process was harrowing and I wouldn't be discussing it, because I didn't want to hurt them. I said I was telling them, because I just want to be able to enjoy my tea without people looking at me sideways. This person responded by saying they don't't always go to church and don't always obey the word of wisdom. I thought it was a sweet attempt to tell me I'm okay, but part of me wonders if they think I left the church over tea.
If your issues are doctrinal, then I think it gets stickier. So many of the doctrinal issues will be written off as cultural. For instance, if your issue is the church treats women unequally, ever since both women's meetings have been made a part of General Conference, that has opened up the possibility for any talk--even one delivered by a teenage girl--to be the source talk for a Sacrament Meeting talk or even a Priesthood lesson. So, any claims of not listening to women can truly be blamed on culture. However, the fact that I put the "even" twice in front of some key nouns speaks volumes and there's no real way to convincingly state your case without really delving into and picking apart the doctrines and that's when it gets really offensive for Mormons.
The advantage of the historical issues is they are well known and there are lots of materials to support him and you. The disadvantage to historical issues is I think Mormons consider them more easily discounted. The advantage with doctrinal issues is the church is what it is. Pretty much all the members are beginning to recognize the church isn't a comfortable place for everyone. The down side is our loved ones really do believe the church is true and love the church deeply. Discussing doctrinal issues will go nowhere good. The doubter can be viewed as fundamentally defective or the believer can have it pointed out to them that many of their beliefs are immoral. Just, no good options.
Then, we tend to not alter our behavior until, as you very well describe, our disaffection is quite old. We may attend less or feel less need to go to every meeting or relax how closely we obey the word of wisdom. This will, of course, place you on the radar of many Mormons, so, as you state, they know something is up. By this time the talk is merely confirming what they suspect or are trying to deny. So, you've been preparing him for this talk.
I never told my ex, fully what was going on. I was concerned it could cost me custody. My son knows, though, and I came out at work. The way I approached both situations was to tell them I no longer believed, my issues were doctrinal and, since I had no desire to destroy their testimony, I would not be initiating any discussions on the topic. I won't discuss it at work, because anything more than basic declaration of affiliation and a few acknowledgements of cultural impact are all that are allowed. I told my son I was open to questions, but would leave it up to him to determine the pace.
Your husband does deserve more information, but I do think leaving it up to the receiver of this information to determine the pacing is important.
A humorous result for me is I told someone I no longer believe, that my issues were doctrinal, that the process was harrowing and I wouldn't be discussing it, because I didn't want to hurt them. I said I was telling them, because I just want to be able to enjoy my tea without people looking at me sideways. This person responded by saying they don't't always go to church and don't always obey the word of wisdom. I thought it was a sweet attempt to tell me I'm okay, but part of me wonders if they think I left the church over tea.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
Re: How to have the talk
It sort of depends on if your beloved is open minded or not. Even still, it's a difficult situation because Mormons are taught at very young age by those they love the most that they are the lucky ones to be "born underneath a cov-net".
It's not difficult to see why people stay. They like the relationships. A lot don't even care about the doctrine.
Once you toss the temple garments in the trash bin, things escalate quickly. Can't speak for the rest of you, but tossing the garments was so very freeing. Now if I could get my beloved to do the same.....
In any case, good luck. I don't think that there is any best way. Some good advice from others here, and the best is the simplest- be honest.
It's not difficult to see why people stay. They like the relationships. A lot don't even care about the doctrine.
Once you toss the temple garments in the trash bin, things escalate quickly. Can't speak for the rest of you, but tossing the garments was so very freeing. Now if I could get my beloved to do the same.....
In any case, good luck. I don't think that there is any best way. Some good advice from others here, and the best is the simplest- be honest.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell
Re: How to have the talk
Oh wow. . . just wanted to say all the best to you and your husband. I too am the "wayward one" and for me, I've communicated my feelings throughout my entire process from "investigator" back in 2011, to "new member" in 2014 / 2015 to now "transitioning out." My own journey has been difficult for both of us and I do feel bad for my husband at times that he has to deal with all of this, but I cannot deny my heart / intuition / truth. I suppose he never has to worry that I'm keeping something inside!MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:59 pm So, I've been playing the really long game and have never been completely honest with my husband about where I stand in my belief and the church. I can tell we're getting really close to having some kind of explosive conversation/confrontation. It may be the first we've ever had in fifteen years of marriage.
Any tips on what kinds of ways to talk about controversial issues? What time of day is best? How to stay on topic? How to avoid accusations? Any advice is appreciated.
My advice would be to lessen the chance of it being "explosive" and "confrontational" as much as possible. I don't know you or your husband, so you probably want to take into account your husband's personality--would he prefer to talk about something like that on a long drive? at home? Reading a letter you wrote to him? You may want to keep it short and sweet to begin with, only adding details / information if he asks for it. Reassuring him of your commitment to your marriage (if true?) might also be a good idea to help keep things in perspective. Good luck to you!
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Enoch Witty
- Posts: 297
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Re: How to have the talk
Since we're back at this thread, I'm kind of curious if you ever did have this talk MerrieMiss.MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:59 pm So, I've been playing the really long game and have never been completely honest with my husband about where I stand in my belief and the church. I can tell we're getting really close to having some kind of explosive conversation/confrontation. It may be the first we've ever had in fifteen years of marriage.
Any tips on what kinds of ways to talk about controversial issues? What time of day is best? How to stay on topic? How to avoid accusations? Any advice is appreciated.
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MerrieMiss
- Posts: 580
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:03 pm
Re: How to have the talk
Nope, I never did.Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:28 pmSince we're back at this thread, I'm kind of curious if you ever did have this talk MerrieMiss.MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:59 pm So, I've been playing the really long game and have never been completely honest with my husband about where I stand in my belief and the church. I can tell we're getting really close to having some kind of explosive conversation/confrontation. It may be the first we've ever had in fifteen years of marriage.
Any tips on what kinds of ways to talk about controversial issues? What time of day is best? How to stay on topic? How to avoid accusations? Any advice is appreciated.
I was fairly depressed all last summer. Summer does that to me. We moved, and that was harder than I anticipated. I felt like I was at the end of my rope and I was just going to let loose with everything. It never happened. I had a few instances of being really angry and saying things, but I have never said I don't believe the church is true (whatever that means
).I plan to have the conversation. I think he knows, but at the same time he doesn't. It's so obvious - I told him I think the temple is silly and I refuse to go, I haven't worn garments for years, I said I want to pay less in tithing, I hate going to church and am vocal about it, we've gone to other churches, I want to buy wine for cooking...but I've been where he is. And you can be so full of the "church is true, it's everything to me" that it's impossible to understand how someone simply can't believe anymore. So, I think he knows, but hasn't admitted it to himself.
The truth is, I think he's starting to see a lot of it, but I fear the pull of his zealous family will be too strong a force. We'll see.
Re: How to have the talk
Merriemiss sometimes I read your posts and I feel like we are the same person 
Your husband also sounds a bit like mine in that if he really let himself think about it I think he would know how far down the rabbit hole I am.
Your husband also sounds a bit like mine in that if he really let himself think about it I think he would know how far down the rabbit hole I am.
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Thoughtful
- Posts: 1162
- Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm
Re: How to have the talk
I tried again tonight.
I was having a very vulnerable moment, Spouseman was listening, he mentioned how much has changed and I was explaining the freedom to BE that comes when you don't have to wonder if you're going to eternally damn your family by making a selfish decision, like buying new socks too soon. I was going to say that the church took so much off the table for me in opportunities, calling them selfish, when I could have been happier, had more relaxation and fun with him and the kids sooner AND been helping other families too. So yes, I'm different now because I'm free to actually choose things I want instead of what I "should" or "must" do to get my family to heaven.
But my 17yo picked that moment to walk in, and I didn't get to finish my thought. And now kid has gone to bed and *crickets*.
I was having a very vulnerable moment, Spouseman was listening, he mentioned how much has changed and I was explaining the freedom to BE that comes when you don't have to wonder if you're going to eternally damn your family by making a selfish decision, like buying new socks too soon. I was going to say that the church took so much off the table for me in opportunities, calling them selfish, when I could have been happier, had more relaxation and fun with him and the kids sooner AND been helping other families too. So yes, I'm different now because I'm free to actually choose things I want instead of what I "should" or "must" do to get my family to heaven.
But my 17yo picked that moment to walk in, and I didn't get to finish my thought. And now kid has gone to bed and *crickets*.
Re: How to have the talk
This is not the "mood" that teenagers normally ruin, but I do empathize. Getting that conversation on track is really difficult. The inertia to maintain the status quo is most easily kept when the conversation does not happen. I really wanted this same conversation with my wife for many years and it still has not happened to the degree that I hoped.Thoughtful wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:02 pm But my 17yo picked that moment to walk in, and I didn't get to finish my thought. And now kid has gone to bed and *crickets*.
This is a microcosm of the problem that apostates have on a weekly basis when we agree to still attend church. I'm one of those crazy people that still attends all three hours of church and I keep my mouth shut on a host of issues. There is no forum for addressing our biggest questions at all. I will admit my arrogance that I think I really do know more than the other people in Gospel Doctrine class. But I would happliy accept a proper pushback if someone could show me where I am wrong.
This will never happen. I don't bring up 90% of the questions I might have and I simply let my fellow ward members enjoy(?) their Sabbath Day worship. We are only weeks away from my favorite lesson about Balaam and his talking donkey. Should I openly ask if the other class member really think this actually, historically happened? Or will I note that Balaam may have been talking out of his ass?
In general, I let my wife enjoy her devout LDS beliefs and don't try to put much weight on her shelf. I have found my own joy in life by untethering my happiness from her emotional state. This is not what either she or I signed up for, but it better reflects reality.