This summer is going to a rough one

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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jfro18
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This summer is going to a rough one

Post by jfro18 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:14 pm

Obviously I've been dealing with being in a mixed faith marriage for a long time and that's become way more complicated since I went down the rabbit hole a year ago.

We haven't talked about church at all in a few months, which is good although we have a lot of awkwardness since she focuses so much on church and I have been reading up about the church's history.

Three years ago we spent our big vacation visiting her in-laws in Europe because they were on a senior mission. Neither of us would've ever picked Poland, but the church picked that for us...

They got back and are already back in Europe for a second senior mission... and guess what? We're going again.

And right now we're in Arizona for a mission farewell... which is really difficult for me. As DW napped for two hours yesterday I got to hear from the other room for about 98% of the two hours church talks... they commented on people who fall away, they used the phrase "it's not important to my salvation" when discussing the bad stuff, and how much they felt the spirit at every turn.

Today DW threw out that they're all going to the temple tomorrow so I am on my own with our kid... which of course is awkward given my horrible experience in the temple combined with knowing it's just a masonic ceremony wrapped in polygamy. She gets upset that I am not *happy* that she goes, and I've explained I will always support her going but I will always have rough feelings about the temple given what it means for us.

I should not have come on this trip.

I'm just venting - I know you all deal with this too. It's been a while since I've really had church stuff just thrown at me from all directions. I am so so so glad I live away from everyone.

But once again our trips this summer are going to be church related, and yet I'm the one who is told I can't leave the church alone. :cry:

Every time I hold out some hope my wife is starting to open up I'm reminded of just how retrenched she has become, and that's just a really awful feeling. Again, I know others are dealing with it... I need to realize there's no hope and that she is OK with being someone else's polygamous wife for eternity.... because as she told me "If I was asked to do it by the prophet, that's the one way I'd do it." Just as Joseph designed it!

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Corsair
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by Corsair » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:15 pm

Would you like to meet for lunch? There are a shocking number of NOM contributors in the Phoenix area.

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græy
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by græy » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:33 am

I'm sorry for the rough spot you're in jfro.

I can only empathize. My wife has recently started to re-double her re-doubling efforts on many fronts. Two steps forward 1 13/14 steps backwards, as they say.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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Angel
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by Angel » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:12 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:14 pm
Obviously I've been dealing with being in a mixed faith marriage for a long time and that's become way more complicated since I went down the rabbit hole a year ago.

We haven't talked about church at all in a few months, which is good although we have a lot of awkwardness since she focuses so much on church and I have been reading up about the church's history.

Three years ago we spent our big vacation visiting her in-laws in Europe because they were on a senior mission. Neither of us would've ever picked Poland, but the church picked that for us...

They got back and are already back in Europe for a second senior mission... and guess what? We're going again.

And right now we're in Arizona for a mission farewell... which is really difficult for me. As DW napped for two hours yesterday I got to hear from the other room for about 98% of the two hours church talks... they commented on people who fall away, they used the phrase "it's not important to my salvation" when discussing the bad stuff, and how much they felt the spirit at every turn.

Today DW threw out that they're all going to the temple tomorrow so I am on my own with our kid... which of course is awkward given my horrible experience in the temple combined with knowing it's just a masonic ceremony wrapped in polygamy. She gets upset that I am not *happy* that she goes, and I've explained I will always support her going but I will always have rough feelings about the temple given what it means for us.

I should not have come on this trip.

I'm just venting - I know you all deal with this too. It's been a while since I've really had church stuff just thrown at me from all directions. I am so so so glad I live away from everyone.

But once again our trips this summer are going to be church related, and yet I'm the one who is told I can't leave the church alone. :cry:

Every time I hold out some hope my wife is starting to open up I'm reminded of just how retrenched she has become, and that's just a really awful feeling. Again, I know others are dealing with it... I need to realize there's no hope and that she is OK with being someone else's polygamous wife for eternity.... because as she told me "If I was asked to do it by the prophet, that's the one way I'd do it." Just as Joseph designed it!
I feel your pain - my DH will not talk about it, but in my head it feels like he's not really concerned for my salvation, and happy for polygamy in the future... I mean either they love you, and want to be with you for eternity, and if they really believed it would want you back in the church - or - you find out they don't really love you, just marriage of convenience, marriage to make themselves look good "see - I won't leave them even when... look at how forgiving and saintly I am...

Use your time with the kiddos well :D Not to use the kids as a battle ground, but I do take one-on-one opportunities with them to educate them. They very much appreciate their apostate mother - they know I will accept them for whatever and whoever they are, and I will support them whatever they do...

Independence - emotionally, financially, socially - get your own group of friends, get your own hobbies to go to, and force them to have 'balanced' outings. Me and my DH are going to fundraiser concert for a deceased homosexual friend right after church on Sunday :) I will go to church with him, and he will come with me to my gatherings.

Consider them a room-mate rather than a spouse if that helps you process your relationship with them in a more healthy way. I love my DH - that is why I married him, but I am also independent :)

Hope you are doing ok!!
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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jfro18
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by jfro18 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:05 am

Corsair wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:15 pm
Would you like to meet for lunch? There are a shocking number of NOM contributors in the Phoenix area.
I wish I had seen this before I left - would've been fun to try and set up. Next time we need to give it a go- they're all in the Mesa/Gilbert/Chandler area so I could get out to meet some of you pretty easily besides having to explain where I'm going. :lol:
græy wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:33 am
I'm sorry for the rough spot you're in jfro.

I can only empathize. My wife has recently started to re-double her re-doubling efforts on many fronts. Two steps forward 1 13/14 steps backwards, as they say.
Yeah... my wife has retrenched to a point that is kind of scary for me, although I realize where I'm at is scary for her so that's of course the entire challenge of a mixed faith marriage, right?

The trip was a bit of a disaster... the farewell day was fine (had to listen to a rather... interesting... two hour church conversation in the background as my wife napped and I was working on the laptop), but I just focused on my stuff and didn't say a word.

Things got dicey when she threw a surprise temple trip at me and told me to see my Aunt/Uncle during it, which was a visit she actually initiated and knew I was trying to get out of (in hindsight I think she told my aunt/uncle we'd see them knowing she could dump me off). She knew I was really annoyed about that so she then went and scanned through things I had written about church issues and only read the 'emotional' stuff (avoiding all evidence and history) and then threw it all back at me when we got home.

Awesome.

Things are better since, but it's just part of the ups and downs of this... I definitely have zero hope that she'll ever open up to the reality of this stuff, but I just hope she can at least give me space until she's ready to at least listen to *why* I have come to the conclusions I have. We'll see.

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Hagoth
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:36 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:05 am
... I just hope she can at least give me space until she's ready to at least listen to *why* I have come to the conclusions I have. We'll see.
That is the realistic thing to hope for, but even if she's never ready to fully listen to your reasons with an open mind hopefully you can come to a mutual acceptance that you each have equal reasons and rights to believe as you do without needing the other to sacrifice their moral center. I know that is really hard from the TBM perspective because everything must be cleanly divided into right/good and wrong/evil.

Hang in there!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Newme
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by Newme » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:43 am

jfro18 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:05 am
... I just hope she can at least give me space until she's ready to at least listen to *why* I have come to the conclusions I have. We'll see.
That is what I wish many TBM-loved-ones would offer - at least have the smallest amount of belief in us to trust that maybe we’ve found some truth. I’m not suggesting this is your case, but TBMs in my life tend to shoot the messenger rather than consider any truth in the message.

At a family reunion, my aunt came up to me all excited because she heard about me realizing the church is a cult (she used to be lds). It was difficult to talk surrounded by mostly TBM family. I told her & my uncle when I think of when I lectured my sister about going to the temple when she was inactive, I realize how wrong I was. And that reminds me to “forgive them for they know not what they do.”

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:12 am

Ah yes, same situation with the semi annual family reunion locked in a rental compound. Myriad of LDS themed skits, crafts, devotionals, more skits and songs and maybe one day at a beach somewhere. It's hard to last the week.


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jfro18
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by jfro18 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:51 am

Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:43 am
That is what I wish many TBM-loved-ones would offer - at least have the smallest amount of belief in us to trust that maybe we’ve found some truth. I’m not suggesting this is your case, but TBMs in my life tend to shoot the messenger rather than consider any truth in the message.
Yeah I think that's a big part of it. Once I found out all of this she would attack me for 'never having a testimony' or attack say Jeremy Runnels for making $$ off the CES Letter (that's a big apologetic attack from Jim Bennett). It was always about the person saying it and then when she couldn't use that excuse it was 'speaking as a man.' But either way, she wants me to say the church is a force for good while refusing to admit that the church lied about its own history... it's a really unworkable balance.
Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:43 am
At a family reunion, my aunt came up to me all excited because she heard about me realizing the church is a cult (she used to be lds). It was difficult to talk surrounded by mostly TBM family. I told her & my uncle when I think of when I lectured my sister about going to the temple when she was inactive, I realize how wrong I was. And that reminds me to “forgive them for they know not what they do.”
Yeah... I have been attacked for saying I was lied to by the missionaries about 23 years ago. She then says I am calling those who did missions in her family liars, which is not true... they had no idea what they were saying, so while they were lying about the church, they thought they were being honest.

But yeah - it's really tough to be around that and then when you do talk to those who have left the church everyone around looks at it weird like "oh there go the apostates."

But after the AZ trip she no longer wants to go to see her parents with me, so I guess that's one less thing to worry about although she still wants to go next year... just not with me. Gotta love this church!

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Angel
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by Angel » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:17 pm

When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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græy
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by græy » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:36 am

jfro, Have either you or your DW tried listening to the marriage on a tightrope podcast?

Kattie does a really good job of expressing the hurt and fear experienced by the believer when their spouse goes through a faith crisis, but then she goes on the explain why that fear was (ultimately) unfounded. They both discuss how their marriage has grown stronger as they've developed better communication and a deeper commitment to each other through the whole process.

Kattie and Alan both make a promise to never delve into historical or truth claims issues from the church so it is safe for the believer from that perspective. The whole purpose is solely to try to help each spouse better understand the other.

My wife and I started listening to the series when they first launched last year, but my DW dropped out when they took a short hiatus, and doesn't seem too interested in returning just yet. Maybe worth a shot?

https://marriageonatightrope.org/
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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Newme
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by Newme » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:16 am

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:51 am
Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:43 am
That is what I wish many TBM-loved-ones would offer - at least have the smallest amount of belief in us to trust that maybe we’ve found some truth. I’m not suggesting this is your case, but TBMs in my life tend to shoot the messenger rather than consider any truth in the message.
Yeah I think that's a big part of it. Once I found out all of this she would attack me for 'never having a testimony' or attack say Jeremy Runnels for making $$ off the CES Letter (that's a big apologetic attack from Jim Bennett). It was always about the person saying it and then when she couldn't use that excuse it was 'speaking as a man.' But either way, she wants me to say the church is a force for good while refusing to admit that the church lied about its own history... it's a really unworkable balance.
Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:43 am
At a family reunion, my aunt came up to me all excited because she heard about me realizing the church is a cult (she used to be lds). It was difficult to talk surrounded by mostly TBM family. I told her & my uncle when I think of when I lectured my sister about going to the temple when she was inactive, I realize how wrong I was. And that reminds me to “forgive them for they know not what they do.”
Yeah... I have been attacked for saying I was lied to by the missionaries about 23 years ago. She then says I am calling those who did missions in her family liars, which is not true... they had no idea what they were saying, so while they were lying about the church, they thought they were being honest.

But yeah - it's really tough to be around that and then when you do talk to those who have left the church everyone around looks at it weird like "oh there go the apostates."

But after the AZ trip she no longer wants to go to see her parents with me, so I guess that's one less thing to worry about although she still wants to go next year... just not with me. Gotta love this church!
I can relate too well. It’s tough.
As I’ve learned more and more, in some ways, I feel more alone and as if I now need to find my own way, and I admit, I don’t know exactly what I’m doing. :) Yet, I’ve received blame for not having figured out or established a better religion! Forums like this or other external sources were blamed as the anti-mormon cause of my beliefs evolving. They have had influence but were not the origin and I’m not the type to go along with things just because everyone is.

The distinction you made between lying and being liars is huge - probably a good summary of how best to deal with our TBM loved-ones. I remember being all preachy to some - which now I realize was kind of lying. I wasn’t a liar because I didn’t know I was lying. Still, to realize how I’ve been duped and even contributed to it - is a slap of betrayal.

It’s difficult to be around a mob of cult-members, especially when they’re family and you’d hope they’d be a source of support, but instead they are a source of stress. I suppose you could look at it as a test of maintaining integrity, self-esteem and healthy boundaries- in the face of opposition.

Others have offered some good marriage advice. I hope the best for you!

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jfro18
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by jfro18 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:19 am

Newme wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:16 am
As I’ve learned more and more, in some ways, I feel more alone and as if I now need to find my own way, and I admit, I don’t know exactly what I’m doing. :) Yet, I’ve received blame for not having figured out or established a better religion! Forums like this or other external sources were blamed as the anti-mormon cause of my beliefs evolving. They have had influence but were not the origin and I’m not the type to go along with things just because everyone is.
Yeah this is the hardest thing. I stopped going years ago and yet the church hangs over me like a dark shadow... I see the stupid garments every day and the few times I've had a drink I feel like I'm cheating on my wife.

It's a really weird feeling to try and break through that and stop feeling guilty for trying something like coffee, but I think that's where I need to get to because I can't control what my wife believes and I have to stop letting what she believes control me.

Sometimes I look at the 70% inactivity rate in the church and just cry that DW couldn't have been in that group. :lol:

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Newme
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Re: This summer is going to a rough one

Post by Newme » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:28 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:19 am
Newme wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:16 am
As I’ve learned more and more, in some ways, I feel more alone and as if I now need to find my own way, and I admit, I don’t know exactly what I’m doing. :) Yet, I’ve received blame for not having figured out or established a better religion! Forums like this or other external sources were blamed as the anti-mormon cause of my beliefs evolving. They have had influence but were not the origin and I’m not the type to go along with things just because everyone is.
Yeah this is the hardest thing. I stopped going years ago and yet the church hangs over me like a dark shadow... I see the stupid garments every day and the few times I've had a drink I feel like I'm cheating on my wife.

It's a really weird feeling to try and break through that and stop feeling guilty for trying something like coffee, but I think that's where I need to get to because I can't control what my wife believes and I have to stop letting what she believes control me.

Sometimes I look at the 70% inactivity rate in the church and just cry that DW couldn't have been in that group. :lol:
:) I can relate.
The shame really sucks - and dysfunctional parenting can add to it. I guess it takes time to overcome - and also persistence in rethinking in ways that are not shameful but affirming etc.

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