Mrs. Hagoth is reading RSR

[Hagoth]

No prompting from me at all. She just took it down from my shelf one day and started reading. Got about 20 pages in and set it aside. I thought, well, so much for that, but a week later she picked it up and started reading again. I'm acting kind of disinterested until she hits a WTF topic and wants to talk about it.

[Obadiah_Dogberry]

Jealous!
RSR starts out quite slowly with JS ancestors.
I really want Mrs. Dogberry to read Mormon Enigma. I think if she did she'd invent time travel just to junk punch JS.....

Let us know if she reads more!

[glass shelf]

I'll be interested to hear what she has to say about it.

I have a female relative who thinks RSR is further evidence of how great of a person JS was as he was real and imperfect. I'd like to see what she'd have to say about In Sacred Loneliness, but I think she loves to make the church work because the mental gymnastics make her feel superior to others.

[Meilingkie]

Well, the problem with RSR is that it´s being gentle and kind on JS.
It does not bare all the facts. It´s glossing over quite a lot.
Or put better: It sweeps stuff under the rug, but then points out: don´t mind the mess, and the lumps under the carpet.

RSR tends to flip people both ways, it made me cope and accept JS at first, then later on as I digested more and more it made me angry as hell.

[Deepthinker]

That's good news Hagoth!

I hope someday my wife will reach the point where she would read anything like that.

[Yobispo]

Like our friend from across the pond, RSR helped me deal with Joseph's imperfections for a while. I actually dug in with a sense of "realistic Joseph".

[FreeBird]

I read RSR as a last-ditch effort to believe the narrative again. I wanted to read the faithful perspective of a respected scholar. It confirmed that the problems are all true and that the best the church can do is highlight that despite all the problems, Joseph Smith started a church that has persisted to the present day. That's not enough for me.

[Hagoth]

Well, the problem with RSR is that it´s being gentle and kind on JS.
It does not bare all the facts. It´s glossing over quite a lot.
Or put better: It sweeps stuff under the rug, but then points out: don´t mind the mess, and the lumps under the carpet.

I agree. But it is a step toward a more realistic understanding. At least it opens the door to real history that is off limits in correlated lessons. She has never been a Joseph worshiper by any means, so it will be interesting to see how she responds, assuming she sticks with it - it can be a pretty rough stone to roll.

I have come to the realization that I'm not hoping that she will lose loose her faith and leave the church. She is a very moral and giving person by nature, with or without the church. She doesn't need it because she believes it makes her a better person; it really has nothing to offer her in that sense, but the Plan of Salvation has given her a lot of hope because of lost loved ones. I just want her to have a better understanding of the reasons I can't believe.

Actually, I don't care what anyone believes, I just have a problem with people claiming made-up authority and pushing other people around by pretending to have special access to God.

[FreeBird]

But it is a step toward a more realistic understanding. At least it opens the door to real history that is off limits in correlated lessons.

I think this is really important. Once people gain this perspective, they become more compassionate to those of us who have left. They're also better equipped to make informed decisions about the role of the church in their lives. I think it's much healthier than the dogmatic view that is so common. Interestingly, I think I'm happier when I'm less dogmatic in my unbelief.

[hiding in plain sight]

I am totally jealous Hagoth.

This is clearly a sign of a tender mercy from TFSM. You are so blessed.

[Mormorrisey]

And frankly, even with my training as a historian, RSR is a hard history book to get through. Lots of bogged down detail that's interesting only to historians, methinks. But on the other hand, a sign of real progress if she's willing to pick up that paperweight as a non-historian. I was happy to see Sister M skim through it, but when it came to the essays, which are easier to read, she just skimmed them too - when questioned, she didn't remember much. But now in the midst of a discussion she can say she read them and knows the issues. I suspect that's going to be a fallback position to those doubling down. But I'm always pleased to see progress in other mixed faith relationships, and that is a significan step. Good luck on the ensuing discussions.

[slk]

That is great news Hagoth. Is RSR sold at Deseret book? If so, I think I know what I'm getting my dad for X-mas. Also, is John Bushman respected among most TBMs? I had never heard of him until I found out about RSR.

My dad loves reading and loves history and this might be the book I have him start with. I just don't want him thinking that this is just another anti-book. Sounds like it is not anti, but just enough to get people thinking.

[Mormorrisey]

That is great news Hagoth. Is RSR sold at Deseret book? If so, I think I know what I'm getting my dad for X-mas. Also, is John Bushman respected among most TBMs? I had never heard of him until I found out about RSR.

My dad loves reading and loves history and this might be the book I have him start with. I just don't want him thinking that this is just another anti-book. Sounds like it is not anti, but just enough to get people thinking.

RSR is a good starting place, because you can say that Bushman is one of the main editors of the Joseph Smith Papers Project, which is the most significant Church history publication, jeez, I would say ever? Served as a stake president and patriarch too, so his credentials are bona fide for a TBM. Until they start reading it, that is. That book scared a lot of people in my neck of the woods.

[Culper Jr.]

RSR is a great starting point. The polygamy/polyandry stuff really hit me because at the time it was new information for me. What really got me questioning though is that Bushman presents different information and context about stories that are familiar to most LDS members. Sort of a "this is the way it really happened" that clearly shows how the church has hidden/whitewashed the history even in small ways. RSR didn't crack my shelf, but it made me think and once you start seeing the truth about the church's history you can't unsee it. Correlated lessons and talks can never be heard the same way.

[Hagoth]

That is great news Hagoth. Is RSR sold at Deseret book?

https://deseretbook.com/p/joseph-smith- ... -paperback

It even got a four star rating, plus this 1-star review:

Bushman obviously spent much time in researching for this book however he was seduced by the anti-authors whom he copiously quotes and footnotes. He was obviously trying to have his book accepted by the academic world and wrote for that audience...blah blah blah...This book does a real injustice to the Smith family and to Joseph. I cannot recommend this book.

[MerrieMiss]

I just want her to have a better understanding of the reasons I can't believe.

This is all I really want. I can live with DH and I thinking and believing differently. We did even whenI was TBM. But I'd like to him to at least have a bit of perspective of where I am coming from.

[moksha]

Mrs. Hagoth is reading RSR.

Maybe Mrs. Hagoth will be so fascinated that she will want to read the source material NMKMH (No Man Knows My History) by Fawn Brodie.

[beetbox]

That's great, Hagoth. I hope she comes away with more appreciation of your position. My wife read it right after I confessed I no longer believe (which happened not long after I read RSR). She said it reaffirmed her faith, and she has never waivered a single bit since then. Sigh.

[Hagoth]

That's great, Hagoth. I hope she comes away with more appreciation of your position. My wife read it right after I confessed I no longer believe (which happened not long after I read RSR). She said it reaffirmed her faith, and she has never waivered a single bit since then. Sigh.

Good for her for at least being willing to learn a little bit about the real Joseph Smith.

[Vlad the Emailer]

It even got a four star rating, plus this 1-star review:

Bushman obviously spent much time in researching for this book however he was seduced by the anti-authors whom he copiously quotes and footnotes. He was obviously trying to have his book accepted by the academic world and wrote for that audience...blah blah blah...This book does a real injustice to the Smith family and to Joseph. I cannot recommend this book.

Or, in other words, "this book doesn't say what I want to hear, so waaaaaahhhhh!!"

Actually a perfect example of arguing from the TBM corner. There is a ad hominem attack on Bushman for being seduced by the dark side and writing for an academic audience, but no examples, no details, no support whatsoever for the allegations.