The "D" Word

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
beetbox
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by beetbox » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:23 pm

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:Communication is so tricky . . . I often write these scripts in my head and when the actual conversation doesn't follow the script (because the other person doesn't know what I'm trying to communicate or what I hope for from them as a response) it can be really distressing and confusing to both of us.

It sounds like you may have brought up divorce because you needed to hear her reassure you that she stills loves and values you and wants to be with you, . . . but isn't it possible that she didn't hear your desire for reassurance at all? That maybe what she heard was you expressing in a roundabout way your desire for an escape from the marriage? And that she was as gobsmacked by the topic coming up for the first time as you were that she didn't respond lovingly and vehemently against the idea of divorce? I don't know (wasn't there obviously) but I have a LOT of experience with hearing things DH never meant to communicate, as well as the reverse.

I have no way of knowing what she thought, but based on what you've shared it seems possible, and given what's at stake I would certainly revisit the conversation and try to make sure both of you know what the other meant to communicate.

I'm sorry for your distress and pain. It's a terribly difficult road sometimes.
This is brilliant advice. Very good for me to hear as well.

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Silver Girl
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by Silver Girl » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:37 pm

This whole thread makes me so sad - I've known many of you for nearly two years, and I know you're all incredibly wonderful and caring people, and you love your families. How I wish those things were given the priority they should be given in this church, rather than the long list of rules, rituals and meaningless ceremonies that now drive people apart.

I hate this church.
.
.
Silver Girl is sailing into the future. She is no longer scared.

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MoPag
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by MoPag » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:31 pm

Silver Girl wrote:This whole thread makes me so sad - I've known many of you for nearly two years, and I know you're all incredibly wonderful and caring people, and you love your families. How I wish those things were given the priority they should be given in this church, rather than the long list of rules, rituals and meaningless ceremonies that now drive people apart.

I hate this church.

So much this ^^

Also you have to realize that the church conditions women to believe they are worthless unless they are married to a worthy priesthood holder. And they have this twisted way of making us believe that we are some how responsible for your level of faith. My guess would be that the way your wife is treating you now isn't the real her. It's just a symptom of how the church has conditioned her to see herself and react to your faith transition.

I'm sorry you are going through this. We are all here for you.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Batman
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by Batman » Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:31 am

I hope you can get this worked out Stig. I am in a similar position with a believing wife. I hate what the church has done to us and our relationships. The current leadership is not helping our situation, and many times makes it worse. It helps a little bit to know that there are so many of us in the same boat, but the top leadership does nothing to make mixed faith marriages easier.

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Not Buying It
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:55 am

Batman wrote:I hope you can get this worked out Stig. I am in a similar position with a believing wife. I hate what the church has done to us and our relationships. The current leadership is not helping our situation, and many times makes it worse. It helps a little bit to know that there are so many of us in the same boat, but the top leadership does nothing to make mixed faith marriages easier.
And the fact that leadership does nothing to help says a lot about how much they care about the members. They know there are believing members whose spouses no longer believe in the Church, they know many of these believing members are in a great deal of pain, and what have they done to help them? Nothing. Except disparage their non-believing spouses, they do some of that. Nothing tells me more that the leaders don't care about the members than the fact they have done so little about a widespread problem in the Church that is causing so much pain.

They only care about the Church. They couldn't care less about its members. If they have to choose between lessening the pain of the members with a message that in any way legitimizes or validates the concerns of non-believing spouses, or ignoring the problem and the pain it brings to avoid legitimizing those concerns, they will choose the latter every time. Remember this - they don't care about you or your family. The organization is all that matters to them.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Batman
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by Batman » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:48 am

If they have to choose between lessening the pain of the members with a message that in any way legitimizes or validates the concerns of non-believing spouses, or ignoring the problem and the pain it brings to avoid legitimizing those concerns, they will choose the latter every time. Remember this - they don't care about you or your family. The organization is all that matters to them.
You hit the nail on the head. They will never legitimize my concerns because it is too dangerous for the believing members. What kills me is that they would not have to say much. Just give me a couple of lines in a general conference address and I can use those as a lifeline.

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Dravin
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by Dravin » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:26 am

Not Buying It wrote: And the fact that leadership does nothing to help says a lot about how much they care about the members. They know there are believing members whose spouses no longer believe in the Church, they know many of these believing members are in a great deal of pain, and what have they done to help them? Nothing. Except disparage their non-believing spouses, they do some of that. Nothing tells me more that the leaders don't care about the members than the fact they have done so little about a widespread problem in the Church that is causing so much pain.

They only care about the Church. They couldn't care less about its members. If they have to choose between lessening the pain of the members with a message that in any way legitimizes or validates the concerns of non-believing spouses, or ignoring the problem and the pain it brings to avoid legitimizing those concerns, they will choose the latter every time. Remember this - they don't care about you or your family. The organization is all that matters to them.
It's also a position that extends beyond non-believing spouses. The insistence on preaching an idealized narrative means they create extra pain for those who aren't married before 30 (or sooner), who don't have a passel of kids by (choice, biology, or circumstance), who have absent or abusive parents, who are gay or have gay family members, who have doubts, who have mothers who don't stay at home (by choice or circumstance), and so on.

The rhetoric of the one true saint, despite lip service to individual adaptation, is a pain generating machine.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:54 am

I've avoided commenting on this thread on purpose, because it cuts deep at the heart of my own marriage; while I post things occasionally about my situation in a general fashion, my greatest fear is that I will end up with similar challenges. And that just makes me sad, because Sis M is literally the best thing that has happened to me, and I want to hold on to her. But I also want to live my life. And as everyone on this thread has said, it's rather difficult, because of the nature of the church itself.

Then I realized that I don't have to go into details to still have empathy for your situation, Stig. And for what it's worth, you certainly have my empathy. And I can certainly wish you well on your hopefully together journey.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Deepthinker
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by Deepthinker » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:21 pm

To me, this is the most difficult thing about a faith transition. The family relationships and not having those you love stay with you. It’s my biggest fear with my wife, so I really feel for you Stig. Keep us updated with how things go.

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SeeNoEvil
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by SeeNoEvil » Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:11 pm

There isn't much I can add here as you have received some very good advise. I went down the D rabbit hole shortly after my disaffection. I think often on what I could have done differently but there were many things at play here that were beyond me. But this is about you. I strongly suggest counseling and one that is not LDS. If you have to go through your bishop/LDS SS to get a counselor be aware they report back to your bishop all you discuss. These are tender times. Let her know you love her.
"Every event that has taken place in this universe has led you to this moment.
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown

"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:18 pm

So sorry. for an organization that claims to be the sole source of eternal families, and everlasting happiness the COJCOLDS sure can be an aent of family destruction and sadness.

I suggest doing everything you can to show her your loyalty to the kids and to her. You have to create boundaries, but she needs to see how much you are the one sacrificing for family now and you need some space.

You can get through this!

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Stig
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by Stig » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:42 am

Thanks to everyone for the advice and well wishes. All of that is very helpful.

So, this past Sunday (yesterday) was our Stake Conference. I chose not to go. All three of our kids chose not to go. My wife went. Throughout the course of the rest of the day, I found her crying in secret so as to not let anyone see. I can't help but feel a tremendous amount of guilt about this. I never wanted to cause her pain, but it seems that's all I can do in this situation. It's just brutal.
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:50 am

Stig wrote:Thanks to everyone for the advice and well wishes. All of that is very helpful.

So, this past Sunday (yesterday) was our Stake Conference. I chose not to go. All three of our kids chose not to go. My wife went. Throughout the course of the rest of the day, I found her crying in secret so as to not let anyone see. I can't help but feel a tremendous amount of guilt about this. I never wanted to cause her pain, but it seems that's all I can do in this situation. It's just brutal.
It is brutal, Stig. My heart hurts for both of you.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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Stig
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Re: The "D" Word

Post by Stig » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:19 pm

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Stig wrote:Thanks to everyone for the advice and well wishes. All of that is very helpful.

So, this past Sunday (yesterday) was our Stake Conference. I chose not to go. All three of our kids chose not to go. My wife went. Throughout the course of the rest of the day, I found her crying in secret so as to not let anyone see. I can't help but feel a tremendous amount of guilt about this. I never wanted to cause her pain, but it seems that's all I can do in this situation. It's just brutal.
It is brutal, Stig. My heart hurts for both of you.
You know, despite my disaffection, I never thought I would feel hate toward the Church. But, right now, I do. I really do.
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

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