Suggestions???

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
Post Reply
Bloodhound98
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:58 pm

Suggestions???

Post by Bloodhound98 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:50 pm

So my buddy and I have been in this rollercoaster​ ride and it's safe to say that we are riding solo while our wives are doubting us, as opposed to the Church. We both have kids super young so we still have time to shape our families.
Any suggestions as to what might have gotten your significant others in board??? I obviously realize that this very board indicates that there isn't a solution, but I'm curious nonetheless.
In my opinion men are factual based and women are emotional based (very general and sexist :/) My wife loves the church and social aspects and doesn't see any reason for leaving such a lovely community. Not that I disagree, but I want her to know the truth. Every time I try she rolls her eyes and says "What now?" My buddies wife will say "What are mad about now?"
So I'm open to advice and experimental measures! Load me up!

User avatar
RubinHighlander
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Suggestions???

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:16 pm

It's not easy, especially if they have no complaints. However, there might be something on their shelves that might come up once in a while and you might carefully play off of that.

Stay away from throwing facts at them. Humans are very emotional creatures, especially with religion and politics. Here's a recent feature on The Hidden Brain that provides a good summary of how easily humans filter out the facts because the don't fit their belief system:
http://www.npr.org/podcasts/510308/hidden-brain
Ep. 64 I'm Rigth, You're Wrong

As I look back at my own exit and what helped my DW get on board with leaving it was showing her the emotions of my mental struggle and the pain of my cogdis. She began to empathize with me. I tried throwing facts at her but that never worked, only made her pull her TBM coat tighter around her. I also increased my efforts to be a good husband and not let the faith crises get between us. We also took more Sunday's off for family things, especially just the two of us, which was easier for us with older kids.

Spend some time to understand the science and sociology of indoctrination and how the human mind works and I think that will help you and your buddy figure out some things that might work for you.

Here's another set of videos I highly recommend you go through multiple times that may help:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ-vHE ... ITEg-n3OeA
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

ulmite
Posts: 142
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:28 pm

Re: Suggestions???

Post by ulmite » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:41 pm

Here my two cents of amateur psychology :
People live with the assumption that they are always right. It's a waste of time and energy to be in constant self-doubt, so you persuade yourself that you've thought hard enough and that you are correct. Humans don't change their minds unless they have seriously considered that possibility of them being wrong. As long as you are sure that you already made the right decision, you automatically refute other ideas because you deem them unnecessary or you believe you've already considered them.
So I think you need to get the person you're trying to convince in the state of mind where he/she envisions the possibility of being wrong. Don't try to prove them wrong, try to get them to a point where they can hear you.
Suggestions include playing Socrates and asking pointed questions to induce doubt, or asking them to please meet you in the land of doubt so you can help each other.

Bloodhound98
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:58 pm

Re: Suggestions???

Post by Bloodhound98 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:52 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:16 pm
It's not easy, especially if they have no complaints. However, there might be something on their shelves that might come up once in a while and you might carefully play off of that.

Stay away from throwing facts at them. Humans are very emotional creatures, especially with religion and politics. Here's a recent feature on The Hidden Brain that provides a good summary of how easily humans filter out the facts because the don't fit their belief system:
http://www.npr.org/podcasts/510308/hidden-brain
Ep. 64 I'm Rigth, You're Wrong

As I look back at my own exit and what helped my DW get on board with leaving it was showing her the emotions of my mental struggle and the pain of my cogdis. She began to empathize with me. I tried throwing facts at her but that never worked, only made her pull her TBM coat tighter around her. I also increased my efforts to be a good husband and not let the faith crises get between us. We also took more Sunday's off for family things, especially just the two of us, which was easier for us with older kids.

Spend some time to understand the science and sociology of indoctrination and how the human mind works and I think that will help you and your buddy figure out some things that might work for you.

Here's another set of videos I highly recommend you go through multiple times that may help:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ-vHE ... ITEg-n3OeA
Wow love the brain center podcast. Simply amazing how our Brian's work when it comes to truth and anything that attacks our perception of truth. Good stuff to ponder about.

User avatar
MerrieMiss
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:03 pm

Re: Suggestions???

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:45 pm

Here is what I have found to be the most useful in helping my husband see things from my perspective.

Don’t try to change someone. Being converted into the church is just as annoying as being converted out of it. If you want someone to honor and respect you for who you are, do the same for them.

Encourage empathy. Some studies have shown that people who read lterary fiction are more empathetic than those who do not. Putting yourself into another person’s circumstances can help see another’s perspective. Read/watch films about others’ experiences, personal integrity, different cultures, people who experience value shifts. How do people from other cultures feel when their children adopt other values? How do people’s values change?

Have conversations about ideas/issues. The best conversations happen organically and without a determined outcome. My husband watched Leah Remini’s documentary with me, and it led to a conversation about integrity. For the first time he considered a different view on integrity: if your belief system changes, do you have integrity if you hold to the promises you once made or if you break away from a contract/promise? I never brought Mormonism up – integrity is bigger than Mormonism. Too often church members have been sold the idea that something like integrity means keeping church rules, when in reality, that isn’t what it means at all.

The best way in my opinion, to talk about the problems in Mormonism, is to stop talking about Mormonism. At least for a while. Build a common foundation. If you can agree on what integrity is, maybe down the road you can have an amicable discussion on whether William and Jane Law lost or maintained their integrity. If the person you are speaking with thinks you are out to change them or you have an ax to grind, they will be defensive. It doesn't help the relationship and it doesn't change anyone's mind.

tryingtogetitright
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: Suggestions???

Post by tryingtogetitright » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:27 pm

Try just being a really good dh. Trying to deconvert her isn't ever going to win you any points.

User avatar
ThirdTier
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:27 pm

Re: Suggestions???

Post by ThirdTier » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:29 pm

My 2 cents.

You have to come to terms with the idea that you will never be on the same page again regarding the church or religion. You have to be genuinely okay with that and you have to be able to see your relationship as more important than that.

I'm not saying to give up hope. Just that resentment is your enemy - not the church - if you want the relationship to be healthy.
"I wish I was special" Radiohead, Creep

User avatar
Newme
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:43 pm

Re: Suggestions???

Post by Newme » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:59 am

tryingtogetitright wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:27 pm
Try just being a really good dh. Trying to deconvert her isn't ever going to win you any points.
Good advise.
I think stepping up your game as far as being the most kind and loving husband you can be - is actions speaking louder than words.

Still, for us, I really couldn't bear to give money to the church - especially when we knew families in other poorer areas of the world were really struggling. My husband knew this too - and deep down, I think he wanted to help them more than we were, so after many arguments and tears, we came to compromise. I'd continue going to church with our kids, and we'd shift from giving money to the non-financially transparent church & give it to people we knew who really needed it.

It's been about 6 years since my initial faith transition and he still is pretty strong TBM, but he did have a dream the other day where a snake bit him and symbolically, that can mean that subconsciously he may be considering "initiation, penetration by a content.... that will bring about some kind of healing or new spiritual awareness." AND, the other day, after we watched "The Giver," he said some things that hinted to me that he realized the parallel of some of the church - especially as they called the authorities, "Elders."

I think if I had to say any advise, which I'm trying (& often failing) to follow myself, it would be PATIENCE.

Bloodhound98
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:58 pm

Re: Suggestions???

Post by Bloodhound98 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:46 pm

Well my answer was to just take a step back and not be so actively involved in leaving the Church. I have found the seeds of doubt have been planted and she has gone to her siblings and they don't have the answers at all. I know way more about my TBM in laws (shocker!) About Church History and when they would give an appolgetic answer it just doesn't jive with my wife. So I think I will let it take its course and hope she comes around to what I believe in.
My family on the other hand took a dive for the worst. Pretty sure my brother won't talk to me anytime soon :(

Bloodhound98
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:58 pm

Re: Suggestions???

Post by Bloodhound98 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:48 pm

Well my answer was to just take a step back and not be so actively involved in leaving the Church. I have found the seeds of doubt have been planted and she has gone to her siblings and they don't have the answers at all. I know way more about my TBM in laws (shocker!) About Church History and when they would give an appolgetic answer it just doesn't jive with my wife. So I think I will let it take its course and hope she comes around to what I believe in.
My family on the other hand took a dive for the worst. Pretty sure my brother won't talk to me anytime soon :(

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2357
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Suggestions???

Post by alas » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:21 am

I have kind of been thinking of this, and not sure what to say, because you were already told the things that I think are most important.
1. Be the best husband you can be.
2. Do not try to de convert her.
3. Patience.
4. You have to be genuinely OK with where she is at.

But this sounds like "leave it alone" and "don't try to change her" when your question *was* how to change her. But that really is your best hope. When you try to change her, she feels unloved and blames you because you changed, left the religion, and now you don't really love her. She connects the lack of love she feels (whether it is true or not, it is her perception because trying to change someone means you are unhappy with who they are) with your loss of religion. She will try hard to convert you back to return to the way you used to love her. She will see the only way to save the marriage is to reconvert you, which is not what you want at all. So, wanting to change her backfires.

You can hold out hope that she will eventually join you, but you must show her that you are happy with her, with life, and with yourself for her to see your apostasy as anything less than all out disaster.

Perhaps talk to her about what keeps her in the church. You may even decide that you don't want her to join you in apostasy because it would make her a different person and you love who she is.

That is kind of where I am with my husband. Church makes him feel good. He likes the social stuff. He doesn't much care if it is magically "true" or not. He finds it uplifting.

He accepts where I am, and knows that church is not good for me emotionally. Recently I suggested that for our new summer residence, I might want to go back to church just because in small town Idaho, church is pretty much the only social thing there is. But he not only said no, he argued that we will just have to find something else.

So, he actively does not want me to reconvert because he sees me as happy as an apostate and I do not want to unconvert him because he is happy as a liberal Mormon.

He knows most of the problems with history, hates the way they treat gays, thinks women should have, if not priesthood, at least fully equal say and leadership, has serious questions about the leadership, and if Joseph Smith was or was not a prophet. But he has basically decided that over all, he likes what he gets out of church. His testimony is of Christ, not the institutional church. So, really we are close to the same place faith wise, only he likes church and I dislike it. Same kind of difference as if he likes chocolate ice cream and I like strawberry ice cream.

But you guys have young children and have to decide how to raise them. Do you buy them chocolate ice cream as if it the only flavor there is, do you explain that until they are 18 they eat chocolate, do you explain that mommy likes chocolate and dad likes strawberry but for now they get to eat only chocolate, do you give them some of each and let them decide, or feed them strawberry every other week. It is going to have to be a compromise. And you have to love her enough to compromise.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests