Emotional Intimacy

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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MerrieMiss
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Emotional Intimacy

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm

I’ve been thinking about this today and thought I might post some of my thoughts here. I know a lot of people may not agree with how I’m handling my marriage within the context of lack of belief in the truthfulness of the LDS church: I haven’t told my husband yet.

Part of the reason for that is that I realized I went on this journey completely without him and dumping it on him now would be completely unfair. As I thought about it more I realized we’ve always been on completely separate journeys where our religious/spiritual lives were concerned. Our marriage lacked emotional intimacy and I am working on bridging that (and bringing him into my spiritual journey instead of dumping it on him).

It’s really easy in the dating phase to check things off a list – both men and women do it. And a checklist isn’t a bad thing in itself, but it shouldn’t be the end. A marriage that exists solely because two people agree on whether they like pulp-free orange juice, or not shopping on Sunday, or attending car shows is fundamentally weak.

Perhaps one of my deepest disappointments with the church was realizing that instead of building strong marriages, it was building shallow ones. Intimacy is the key to strong relationships, but instead of teaching this, in regards to relationships between family members, spouses, or in sex, checklists are emphasized instead, leading both parties to disappointment. (On a side note, while the church does not build intimacy between spouses, it does build intimacy (and dependency) between individuals and the institution of the church, but that's another post.)

It seems like ever since we had the kids (which coincidentally is when my shelf crashed) we fell into our church appointed gender roles and we’re just two separate beings trying to make something work. It isn’t very fulfilling. He doesn’t like being a paycheck and I don’t like being a housekeeper.

The only thing I have come up with is this: the church does everything it can to keep husbands and wives busy and apart (gender roles, callings). The only thing a couple comes together for/on is support for the church. Find something, anything to bond over except church. Make a tradition or ritual for just you and your spouse. Listen and talk to each other. Not necessarily long and intense conversations about deep things, but about things that matter to each of you.

My husband is a very technical person. I’ve listened to technical podcasts I know he enjoys and talk about them with him. I’ve asked his opinion on church questions (So why do we need priesthood blessings if worthiness doesn’t matter and the faith of the recipient is what does?). We're planning to paint the garage together. The kids had a sleepover at the grandparents when we were busy working and I ordered dinner for fun.

Has anyone else tried to improve their relationship/intimacy, and how has that worked? Have you talked about it with your spouse? Is it something you work on on your own? What worked? What didn't? Is there a point where it's too late? What do you do when the other person thinks everything is fine? Any thoughts are appreciated.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:50 pm

First off, great post and great questions. I didn't tell my wife of my faith crash for a few years until the issue was forced when I stopped paying/wearing the T & G's. Even so, I still haven't told her I'm a 100% unbeliever. So no judgement here.

A few comments:
MM wrote:Perhaps one of my deepest disappointments with the church was realizing that instead of building strong marriages, it was building shallow ones. Intimacy is the key to strong relationships, but instead of teaching this, in regards to relationships between family members, spouses, or in sex, checklists are emphasized instead, leading both parties to disappointment. (On a side note, while the church does not build intimacy between spouses, it does build intimacy (and dependency) between individuals and the institution of the church, but that's another post.)
This is a spot on insight. Intimacy can't flourish in an overtly controlling environment where the sole focus is on obedience to the church. Think about the mantra to have a personal relationship with God/Jesus? Does anyone in the church really believe they have an intimate emotional connection with the Divinity? No, it's an intimate relationship with the church in the sense that we clean it, wear their underwear, and give it time and money. A dependency of sorts where we do these things in return for eternal salvation.

In regards to this:
MM wrote:Has anyone else tried to improve their relationship/intimacy, and how has that worked? Have you talked about it with your spouse? Is it something you work on on your own? What worked? What didn't? Is there a point where it's too late? What do you do when the other person thinks everything is fine? Any thoughts are appreciated.
We've been seeing a counselor for a few months now and have made really great progress on emotional intimacy and communication. Our therapist has us doing regular homework exercises that focus on communication. It's a form of Emotional Focused Therapy or EFT.

From wiki...
EFT approaches are based on the premise that human emotions are connected to human needs, and therefore emotions have an innately adaptive potential that, if activated and worked through, can help people change problematic emotional states and interpersonal relationships.
Google the Gottman Sound Relationship House Theory for more specific info.
http://www.gottmancouplesretreats.com/a ... heory.aspx

I've been meaning to write up a summary of our experience, homework assignments, and results. I'll have time this weekend during conference. I'll PM you and anyone else who might be interested. Just let me know.
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Give It Time
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Give It Time » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:35 pm

Hmm. Hah. Hmm. I shuffle my feet and look at my shoes. I just suggested Rebel make a pro/con list for his marriage. However, I agree with what you say, here. I championed gender roles in my marriage and my ex didn't. Now, early in our marriage, I supported my ex while he went to school (didn't do his homework and played computer games). I do believe he wanted a switch, because he wanted to slack off. Interestingly, both of us are no longer in favor of gender roles. He is openly misogynistic. He blatantly says he hates women. I think he wants women to take more of his burden, because he thinks women don't do enough.

I don't hate men. There are many things I appreciate about them. I will be honest in that I struggle with male privilege. I'm also raising sons so I am careful to keep all of that in check.

There was a reason for my leading with all that. Your question has a lot of aspects it: gender roles, intimacy (implied sexual intimacy), overall happiness. As suggested by my lead in, I'll just address adjusting the gender roles, which can leading to shifting traditional points of view and increased happiness. Throwing gender roles out the window doesn't mean you'll end up with a fair situation. Only you can determine that. However, if neither of you want gender roles, you have a place to sit down and talk. Since, we're dealing with what looks like a believing husband, I'll work from The Family Proclamation. The various emphases will be mine.
By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.
Gender roles and equal partners There are the gender roles spelled out for us, as if we needed reminding. The "equal" here, I interpret as referring to equal responsibility and workload. Equal responsibility doesn't mean equal authority.

Responsibility vs Authority here it is. The man presides. In the eyes of the church, the two of you have equal responsibility and workloads. I see this as what the church means when they say men and women are equal. You share responsibility, but your husband has all the authority. I hate to say it, if your husband is a believer, you'll probably have to approach this discussion from that understanding.

Individual adaptation So long as the responsibilities remain equal, the two of you can do whatever floats your boat as long as your husband remains the one in authority. Sorry, wish it were otherwise, but those are the cards on the table.

I suggest you try that approach to adjusting the gender roles. He'll probably go for it. Once you've done that, you'll have that successful negotiation under your belt. You'll both be happier. That "faithful" flexibility could open the door for discussions in being flexibly faithful in other ways.

No matter what you end up doing. Hope things work out for you.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Lithium Sunset
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Lithium Sunset » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:15 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm
What do you do when the other person thinks everything is fine?

Thinks everything is fine? Or pretends everything is fine? I believe there is a difference.

I don't have any good advice. I am just left wonder why it has to be so hard?
I am not in this exact situation, but mine is still extremely painful. We do major pretending under this roof. My 15 year old sees right through it and he has become part of the pretending game. That maybe something to think about. It's a terrible way to live if you don't have too. And you are already under the burden of pretending. You seem like you still care for him though so hope is there.

Yes, it can get to the point of too late but I think you will know or strongly sense that you are reaching that point.
"The real things haven't changed. It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with simple pleasures; and have courage when things go wrong." -Laura Ingalls Wilder

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ThirdTier
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by ThirdTier » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:44 pm

I didn't share my faith crisis with DW until I was well into in - like several years. When I finally told her, she was way more upset that I didn't share my struggles with her than the fact that I was doubting the church. Because she could sense something was wrong all along and knew I wasn't being open about it. When I did open up and shared my feelings of profound disappointment and hurt in what I was learning, we felt closer than probably ever before.

When I have tried to convince her or been un-empathetic about church, that drove us apart, but she has really responded well when I have shared my feelings about things - how things affect me personally.

Things that have helped us: regular dates where you can talk, making plans together (trips, home improvement, etc. -- things to get excited about), and a good sense of humor/playfulness.
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Lady_Macbeth
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Lady_Macbeth » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:31 am

After lightly approaching the subject of my disbelief 6 years ago (when we had horrible emotional intimacy), he pulled completely away and entrenched deeply. I dropped it and went back to pretending.

The next year was awful for me (which only slightly had to do with the church), I finally said I needed a break from the relationship. He had no idea it was that bad. He started putting everything he had into listening to me and seeing what I needed to be happier. Once I saw how much he cared, we both worked really hard over the next 5 years to build up our communication which helped us become best friends. We had done marriage counseling years ago, but decided it wasn't for us and didn't try that again. We are both introverts and it was hard to let someone else into our marriage. I studied books and videos about building relationship communication, so I didn't hold it all in and then blow up. And he worked on developing empathy and started listening.

Last year I decided to approach the church subject again when we were in a really good place - which was scary. It went so much better than I could have imagined. No, he didn't agree with me on everything and definitely isn't willing to leave the church behind - but he listened. We communicated. I bring up things that bother me as I find them, but try not to overwhelm.

Not a whole lot of advice, just saying sometimes it takes years and patience.

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Newme
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Newme » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:31 am

MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm
Has anyone else tried to improve their relationship/intimacy, and how has that worked? Have you talked about it with your spouse? Is it something you work on on your own? What worked? What didn't? Is there a point where it's too late? What do you do when the other person thinks everything is fine? Any thoughts are appreciated.
Part of me gave up and trust has been broken repeatedly so I don't know if I have any good advise. We have both decided to make the best of things because we'll all (including our kids) be better off if we don't divorce. When I told him how I felt - actually cried (which I rarely do), it finally got his attention when I told him that even as much as it would hurt to leave and to hurt our kids, he was killing me emotionally & spiritually & it would have to stop. Since then, he's gotten better, not ideal, but better.

As far as your situation, I really think you need to share with him how you've been thinking and feeling about the church & anything else you've kept to yourself. He sounds like a technical type, so it might be good to present it to him in a more rational way - or however he might relate best. I imagine he understands and believes in spiritual promptings and personal revelation. If you say you've studied, pondered & prayed a lot about this and have felt the spirit that it's true, I've found that from a TBM's point of view, that tends to lends some validity even to "apostate" ideas.

As women, we tend to think of everything at once and want to deal with it all here & now, but guys tend to need it in pieces, so again, patience (I'm reminding myself ;) ).

My husband isn't a big reader, but we did try reading some marriage books together. 5 Love Languages is good (learnign to love each other in ways that are meaninful to the recipient), as is 7 principles for Making Marriage Work - or maybe it was the 4 Horseman (Criticism, Defense, Contempt & Stonewalling). An idea from that was that arguing is actually good - and sometimes better than not arguing (stonewalling etc which can build and some day explode) - it's just learning to argue in ways that are healthy and add to intimacy rather than subtract from it.

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Enoch Witty
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Enoch Witty » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:21 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:50 pm
I've been meaning to write up a summary of our experience, homework assignments, and results. I'll have time this weekend during conference. I'll PM you and anyone else who might be interested. Just let me know.
I'd love to check out the summary.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by MerrieMiss » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:57 pm

Enoch Witty wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:21 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:50 pm
I've been meaning to write up a summary of our experience, homework assignments, and results. I'll have time this weekend during conference. I'll PM you and anyone else who might be interested. Just let me know.
I'd love to check out the summary.
Me too. I sent a PM but it appears stuck in my outbox for some reason.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by MerrieMiss » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:00 pm

When I say intimacy, I mean both sexual and non-sexual as well as intimate emotional relationships with a spouse and with others. I don’t have an emotionally intimate connection with my mother. She may think so, but it isn’t. I don’t have one with any of my siblings. I don’t have a friend I am that close to. How can a person be vulnerable if there isn’t any trust established? How can there be any emotional intimacy if love is conditional? (As a tangent this is one of the huge problems with VT. “Can we help you with something?” Well, yes, I’d love some help, but I don’t know you. I don’t trust you. Why would I confide in you or ask for your help? Such relationships take time to develop and don’t turn off just because someone put you on a different list. No, thank you, I’m doing fine.)

This isn’t my situation, but it’s one I read often: How can I be honest and vulnerable with my husband if I think he will leave me /threaten to leave me if I tell him the truth? How can my husband be honest with me if he fears that not believing in the church means I’m going to raise bad kids, start having orgies, and go to hell? There’s no trust in a relationship like that. And so everyone pretends.

The lack of intimacy I have with my husband isn’t that extreme, but I do find myself making a caricature of who I assume he is. I think about what kind of man an active, TR holding, returned missionary, family provider, garment wearing man is. What he thinks, how he feels, how he interprets the world, what I’ve been told he wants, believes and thinks, and frankly, it frightens me to know that who I am is not the church mandated woman I assume he thinks I am. Of course, I never was and he probably isn’t either. We’re probably speaking past each other.

It’s really easy to go about our church prescribed roles doing what we were told to do without ever really communicating about anything important beneath the surface. Well, it was easier when I believed in it.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:17 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:57 pm
Enoch Witty wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:21 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:50 pm
I've been meaning to write up a summary of our experience, homework assignments, and results. I'll have time this weekend during conference. I'll PM you and anyone else who might be interested. Just let me know.
I'd love to check out the summary.
Me too. I sent a PM but it appears stuck in my outbox for some reason.
PM's will show stuck in your outbox until the recipient opens it. I did other things outside to avoid conference but will finish my write up and send.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by MerrieMiss » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:29 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:17 pm
MerrieMiss wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:57 pm
Enoch Witty wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:21 pm


I'd love to check out the summary.
Me too. I sent a PM but it appears stuck in my outbox for some reason.
PM's will show stuck in your outbox until the recipient opens it. I did other things outside to avoid conference but will finish my write up and send.
Thanks, I don't send many PMs. Good to know.

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Linked
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Linked » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:30 pm

Great thread! Thanks for the post MerrieMiss.
MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm
I know a lot of people may not agree with how I’m handling my marriage within the context of lack of belief in the truthfulness of the LDS church: I haven’t told my husband yet.
I spent 2 years not telling my spouse, or anyone. Then I heard an ex-girlfriend on Mormon Stories who had left the church and finally felt like I was not alone, so I reached out to her. (Yes, I now see how stupid that was, I hadn't yet found NOM to keep me from doing stupid things...). My wife saw her response email and understandably freaked out. I had no strategy in how to tell her what, so I told her exactly what I was feeling and it was very hurtful to her and our relationship. She was hurt that I would hide this from her, she said I was essentially lying to her. She was also worried that I was either cheating on her or planning to cheat on her, neither of which were true. And lastly she was hurt that I no longer believed.

I think the reason people suggest you tell your spouse is to prevent the feeling in your spouse that you have been living a double-life and lying to them. It sounds like you are past the point where telling your DH now would be any different than telling him in a year though, so I wouldn't stress too much about jumping in immediately.
MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm
Part of the reason for that is that I realized I went on this journey completely without him and dumping it on him now would be completely unfair. As I thought about it more I realized we’ve always been on completely separate journeys where our religious/spiritual lives were concerned. Our marriage lacked emotional intimacy and I am working on bridging that (and bringing him into my spiritual journey instead of dumping it on him).
Yes! There was a reason I didn't tell my wife for 2 years, and telling her didn't solve the underlying problem. I think your plan to bridge your emotional intimacy gap before/while you bring him into your new worldview is a great idea. My DW and I kind of tried to get closer; we went to a counselor and we tried to have discussions but they always seem to end in tears for her and frustration for me. She seems uninterested in emotional intimacy with me, or with anyone. Her parents are not super close, so maybe it's just not something she feels is important. To be fair to her, I am a difficult person to have open discussions with.
MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm
Perhaps one of my deepest disappointments with the church was realizing that instead of building strong marriages, it was building shallow ones. Intimacy is the key to strong relationships, but instead of teaching this, in regards to relationships between family members, spouses, or in sex, checklists are emphasized instead, leading both parties to disappointment. (On a side note, while the church does not build intimacy between spouses, it does build intimacy (and dependency) between individuals and the institution of the church, but that's another post.)
Interesting observation. Then, when you don't want to fulfill your checklist item of spend time with your spouse because you have nothing in common you feel guilty and do it out of duty. Your spouse can tell you aren't into it and they resent it, building additional distance.
MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm
It seems like ever since we had the kids (which coincidentally is when my shelf crashed) we fell into our church appointed gender roles and we’re just two separate beings trying to make something work. It isn’t very fulfilling. He doesn’t like being a paycheck and I don’t like being a housekeeper.
One of the things I liked about my wife is that she wanted a career. She is well educated and has good earning potential. When I was in the closet about my disbelief I had a glimmer of hope that her desire for a career was the tip of her iceberg of disbelief. But it wasn't. And that's ok. Sometimes I talk about taking a year off of work and being a SAHD and she would work, and she scoffs at that. She thinks I just want to play and that I couldn't handle being a SAHD (I may not be able to handle it, haven't tried...). Oh well.
MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm
The only thing I have come up with is this: the church does everything it can to keep husbands and wives busy and apart (gender roles, callings). The only thing a couple comes together for/on is support for the church. Find something, anything to bond over except church. Make a tradition or ritual for just you and your spouse. Listen and talk to each other. Not necessarily long and intense conversations about deep things, but about things that matter to each of you.

My husband is a very technical person. I’ve listened to technical podcasts I know he enjoys and talk about them with him. I’ve asked his opinion on church questions (So why do we need priesthood blessings if worthiness doesn’t matter and the faith of the recipient is what does?). We're planning to paint the garage together. The kids had a sleepover at the grandparents when we were busy working and I ordered dinner for fun.
That's great! I hope it helps your relationship grow closer. I need to do something similar with my DW. I struggle because she doesn't want to talk about stuff she is doing. She is super private, even to me.
MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm
Has anyone else tried to improve their relationship/intimacy, and how has that worked? Have you talked about it with your spouse? Is it something you work on on your own? What worked? What didn't? Is there a point where it's too late? What do you do when the other person thinks everything is fine? Any thoughts are appreciated.
This has been super difficult for me and DW. Deep intimate discussions are always painful and tearful, so we avoid those. We both like music, so sometimes we will learn songs on the piano together, that seems to work. We try to have a show to watch together every night before bed. She was feeling like she was doing an unfair amount of work for our family so I have tried to balance the load, which helped to take an emotional wall down.

I'm not sure if there is a too late, I wonder if DW and I are past that point sometimes. I think it might be having little kids around though, they demand so much time and attention it is difficult to raise energy for anything else, like caring about a spouses interests. I guess we'll see in a couple years when the kids are grown.

When one spouse thinks everything is fine and you don't I think you need to tell them, or just live with it. Feeling comfortable telling them requires emotional intimacy, so this is a bit of a catch 22...
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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alas
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by alas » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:58 am

There are some ways of building intimacy that a marriage counselor would teach you that you can learn on your own, or really with the help of a good book.

One main one that linked made me think of, because every attempt at deep conversation seems to end in a fight, is communication skills. You cannot have a deep conversation when you keep misinterpreting what the other just said. You cannot have intimacy if it feels to one like the other is blaming them for something. So, if you cannot voice resentments without a blow up, those resentments build.

So, first to build intimacy, you have to know how to communicate effectively. Some skills I used to teach as a domestic violence counselor. Make sure your book covers at least these things:

1. Fair fighting techniques. Just like in a physical fight, there are "below the belt" emotional punches. For instance if you are discussing the budget, hit a minor disagreement, there are several things you can do that turn the small disagreement into a big never settled disagreement. One just as an example is bringing in old unresolved grievances, so instead of arguing about one thing, pretty soon you are arguing about six things.

2. "I statements. This is a less blaming way of bringing up problems. It makes you take responsibility for your emotions instead of blaming your feelings on the other person. "I feel _________ when you _________." Rather than, "You make me so angry."

3. Reflective listening. This is a way to communicate back to your partner that you actually heard them, before you jump in with your rebuttal. It slows the conversation down and allows for clarification of misunderstandings right away instead of after things blow up.

These are just the techniques I taught to couples in domestic violence situations. The object with them was to keep misunderstandings or disagreements from escalating into violence. Of course the violent spouse had to be in anger management, where they were also taught these skills. But most couples lack skill in the area of communication and without good communication, there can be no real intimacy.

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shethinksdeep
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by shethinksdeep » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:26 am

Sorry to bring back up an old post, but it's a good one! I agree, that working on the relationship and intimacy is vital in a mixed faith (or a marriage where one has doubts and the other strongly believes). It can serve as the glue that keeps it all together.

I came across a quote not too long ago that says; "Don't let another day go by where the health of your relationship is sacrificed for a false sense of peace." And it really hit me that this is what I have been doing. I am starting to see that opening up is hard, but good - the only way for our relationship to deepen. I mean, how many of us have had a hard and painful discussion with our spouse, and it really sucked in the moment, but can later look back after the heat of the moment has passed and think..."man, I am so glad we had that talk because things are so much better in that regard now".

I am coming to the conclusion that being vulnerable is so vital to a healthy relationship and for an environment that fosters intimacy. I have been guilty of not being very vulnerable in the past, and I have had my reasons for that. I have only recently started to try and open back up again with my husband about my doubts, and its not been easy, we have had some hard conversations and shed tears together, but I have seen an increase in our intimacy nonetheless. Sometimes the timing is everything - in our case we needed to mature and let things marinate for awhile. I sure hope with all my heart that in the end we will come out strong with a "so glad we had those talks" attitude, and that our relationship will be all the better for it.

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Mad Jax
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Mad Jax » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:27 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm
It’s really easy in the dating phase to check things off a list – both men and women do it. And a checklist isn’t a bad thing in itself, but it shouldn’t be the end. A marriage that exists solely because two people agree on whether they like pulp-free orange juice, or not shopping on Sunday, or attending car shows is fundamentally weak.

Perhaps one of my deepest disappointments with the church was realizing that instead of building strong marriages, it was building shallow ones. Intimacy is the key to strong relationships, but instead of teaching this, in regards to relationships between family members, spouses, or in sex, checklists are emphasized instead, leading both parties to disappointment.
To be truthful, I think a checklist match can be detrimental to a relationship, as strange as it may sound. On some things of course you want to be in agreement (especially for marriage, such as the type of discipline you believe in for children) but generally speaking, I find myself having the most fulfillment from having a very mismatched checklist. Getting into a disagreement with my SO, especially if it's something that has teeth to it, is strangely stimulating in ways that few things are.

I know it may sound crazy, but that might actually be something to consider. It won't solve the issue of a faith crisis and the burden that may impose, but it may be possible that some sort of intimacy can be found that way - some sort of thing that you don't come together on, but can appreciate the other for the different perspective the other brings.

It's just food for thought. I can't know your situation well enough to guess if it will matter or if you don't have something like that already. But I do know that many members are not comfortable with a lack of conformity of thought, and may have never explored what real relationship growth can be achieved by examining those differences. And if the differences between you two can be appreciated... it may lead to more open mindedness about your drift from strict TBM belief.

I hope that made at least some sense.
Free will is a golden thread flowing through the matrix of fixed events.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by MerrieMiss » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:12 am

Mad Jax wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:27 pm
To be truthful, I think a checklist match can be detrimental to a relationship, as strange as it may sound. On some things of course you want to be in agreement (especially for marriage, such as the type of discipline you believe in for children) but generally speaking, I find myself having the most fulfillment from having a very mismatched checklist. Getting into a disagreement with my SO, especially if it's something that has teeth to it, is strangely stimulating in ways that few things are.

I know it may sound crazy, but that might actually be something to consider. It won't solve the issue of a faith crisis and the burden that may impose, but it may be possible that some sort of intimacy can be found that way - some sort of thing that you don't come together on, but can appreciate the other for the different perspective the other brings.

It's just food for thought. I can't know your situation well enough to guess if it will matter or if you don't have something like that already. But I do know that many members are not comfortable with a lack of conformity of thought, and may have never explored what real relationship growth can be achieved by examining those differences. And if the differences between you two can be appreciated... it may lead to more open mindedness about your drift from strict TBM belief.

I hope that made at least some sense.
I think that's possible, but it takes two to appreciate a mismatch or an argument. It's difficult to use difference to build intimacy when at least one person knows they're "right." I was thinking recently about secure attachments and how a secure attachment is when differentiation is allowed. The church really doesn't allow for a secure attachment between it and the members, so it comes as no surprise in a marriage when one partner believes and the other doesn't that intimacy is at stake. Again, one of those instances where a marriage may be good in spite of the church, but not because of it.

a1986
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by a1986 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:47 am

MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 pm
Has anyone else tried to improve their relationship/intimacy, and how has that worked? Have you talked about it with your spouse? Is it something you work on on your own? What worked? What didn't? Is there a point where it's too late? What do you do when the other person thinks everything is fine? Any thoughts are appreciated.
I can't quite relate to all of your post, but I share your need for emotional intimacy. I am the type of person that cannot keep things in. Everything I'm thinking / feeling HAS to come out, especially with those I'm close with and feel comfortable with. Even if it is something unpleasant or something that could make the other person upset / hurt. With my husband, he is very much the type to avoid unpleasant topics / conversation, etc. I believe moments of truthful and honest conversation are the #1 builder of emotional intimacy for the two of us. Usually I initiate an evening where we sit down and just talk about things going on with each other / our relationship, whatever it might be. At first, he always starts out hating it and it definitely makes him uncomfortable, but he gets into it eventually. It should be noted that we usually have these "heart to hearts" when not in the heat of an argument so as not to say things we may not really mean, etc. . .

That's great you're trying to connect with your husband on the podcasts. It's the small things and it's different for everyone I think.

Reuben
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Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Reuben » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:48 am

a1986 wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:47 am
That's great you're trying to connect with your husband on the podcasts. It's the small things and it's different for everyone I think.
I think recognizing the differences between the small ways partners connect with others is important. It's like love languages, except it goes beyond the generalizations that make people think they understand others when they actually barely do.

(I'm not saying the theory of love languages is useless, just that its explanatory power is limited by its simplicity vs. the complexities of the phenomena it tries to explain. I think its simplicity is also its greatest strength, though, making it useful as a starting point.)

My wife feels more connected with people when she knows that they think of her and her needs. One of the best ways to help her feel connected to me is for me to do small things that show her that I'm thinking about her. The theory of love languages would call them "acts of service," but can't say much about what they should be. An example of just how small they can be: she loves it when I lay on her side of the bed to warm it up before she gets in. Many of the small things end up being what love languages would call "quality time."

My wife also feels more connected with people who think and feel like she does. She craves being with people, whether peers or authority figures, whose beliefs and ideals she can buy into 100%. I think that's been the biggest source of disconnect for us, because I just can't connect with her strongly about church-related things anymore. The trick here has been to focus on similarities, and to bring up religion infrequently enough and positively enough that we both get an accurate impression of how much we agree. But there's still tension and disconnect because sometimes I can't be positive about religion because of how I connect with others.

I feel more connected with people I can be myself around. Adapting who I present myself as in different situations has always been hard for me. (It suspect it's because I'm on the autism spectrum. I have to explicitly model how other people understand my presented self, which can be exhausting.) In fact, I feel rejected when I have to hide very much of what I think and feel. My wife has risen to the occasion beautifully on this. I have no idea how the theory of love languages would explain this way of connecting.

I have to admit that the love language "physical touch" pretty much nails one way I connect. My wife and I satisfy this need as well as ensuring we have quality time by naked cuddling while watching Netflix every evening. I strongly recommend trying something similar to anyone willing. It can produce vulnerability in spades, and not just the physical kind. It also can reduce body shame and can lead to awesome sex. It can be hard for a believer to justify, but can possibly be sold as foreplay.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

Thoughtful
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Emotional Intimacy

Post by Thoughtful » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:44 pm

Great thread. For spouseman and myself, I believe our common goals are very important for positive interactions and intimacy. We have things we do together -- yard work, caring for our animals, building our financial portfolio, or working on cases together (we share a lot of clients on MDT teams). Things related to our children can at times be good, but those are more emotional, and so more difficult to build that consistency. I think there needs to be some consistency behind the dramatic problems (church, child rearing, in-laws).

Also, with clients I find the work of Virginia Satir very useful. Sure has a model of communication styles, martyr, blamer, irrelevant, congruent related to how each person considers each person's needs, as well as the context of the situation within a chaos event.

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