It's that time of the every-other-year again

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Hagoth
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It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Hagoth » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:52 am

Mrs. Hagoth: "All I want for my birthday is for you to renew your temple recommend. I don't care that you don't believe, I just want to know that you could go to the temple once in a while with me if I need the support."

I have kept a recommend up until recently, even though my wife, Bishop, and Stake President all know I'm a non-believer and minimal participator, yet all of them think it's so important for me to have an active recommend. I don't get it. Can someone help me understand?

I've told the story several times here about how my Bp and SP help me modify the questions in a nuanced way to squeak by the interview. One time, right in the middle of the interview I said, "I'm sorry, I just can't think of a way to answer this question in a way that will satisfy you," but the bishop didn't care, he just walked me through it, suggesting a completely different version of answers.

I've come to the conclusion that Mrs. Hagoth wants me to have a recommend for exactly the reason she stated, just as a show of support for her. Now I'm beginning to think the BP and SP have exactly the same reason, they have so much respect for her that they want to help me be supportive of her.

This time I've decided to just say something like, "OK, you know I have serious testimony issues and that I only attend some meetings so my wife isn't alone. You know how I've nuanced my answers in past TR interviews, so let's just make the same assumptions this time. Ask me the questions and I'll give simple yes/no answers so we can get this out of the way and I'll have something to slip into my wife's birthday card."

I really respect and love my wife beyond anything in this world (or any other) and I have no trouble doing this for her or sitting in as an occasional proxy for her great-great-grand-something from time to time. The temple is a nice, peaceful place to relax every six months or so. I just hate all of the in-group cultish attachments.

I really think I'm going to ask this time, "Pres/Bish, doesn't it strike you as just a little bit cult-y that I can't go into God's House unless I satisfy another middle-aged man that I'm wearing my underwear properly?"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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oliver_denom
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by oliver_denom » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:25 am

Mormonism is a religion, but it's also a community. It sounds like they just want you to be a full member of the community. Yeah, the interview is supposed to determine belief, but they don't really care about that. This is more of a social recommend than a religious one.

Also, they probably believe that recommends are magic, and once you have one again, they'll get you to go to the temple. Once you're at the temple, where there's tons of magic, you're testimony will be magicked back into you.
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Charlotte
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Charlotte » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:47 am

I have kept a recommend up until recently, even though my wife, Bishop, and Stake President all know I'm a non-believer and minimal participator, yet all of them think it's so important for me to have an active recommend. I don't get it. Can someone help me understand?
One possible answer: You're a man. If you switched places would they go to the same lengths to help Mrs. Hagoth keep her recommend?

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RubinHighlander
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:12 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:52 am
...all of them think it's so important for me to have an active recommend. I don't get it. Can someone help me understand?
In addition to the comments already made I think there's a magical world view attached to things like recommends and reading scriptures every day. Some type of voodoo that if you do those things it might somehow keep you from totally falling off the deep end and leaving your DW. The view of NOMs by TBMs is that they are seriously broken and must be fixed. They believe the fixing is to sit through 3 hours of boring meetings, read fictional scriptures, pay your 10% and of course go to the House of the COB with your DW. All those things will work together for your eternal good.

I remember in my earlier TBM years with little kids, hearing that reading the scriptures everyday with the fam would guarantee that they would never fully leave the church; they might stray for a time but they would always come back. When my kids left the church with my X this was a big item on my shelf because I could see that it didn't apply to me, even though I stayed faithful and tried to read scriptures with them, and do all the other things. I just had to have it thrown in my face all the time when I did go to church and take upon myself the guilt that I must not have tried hard enough.

I commend you for jumping through the hoops for your DW. I did it for a couple of years, just so very grateful I didn't have to go longer than that.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Corsair
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Corsair » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:24 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:52 am
I've come to the conclusion that Mrs. Hagoth wants me to have a recommend for exactly the reason she stated, just as a show of support for her. Now I'm beginning to think the BP and SP have exactly the same reason, they have so much respect for her that they want to help me be supportive of her.
This is often a decent reason to hold onto a recommend. You love your wife more than you dislike the LDS church. I can respect anyone who refuses to hold a recommend because the LDS church is so astonishingly annoying about their virtual cult of recommend holders. But supporting a spouse is a worthy cause.
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:52 am
This time I've decided to just say something like, "OK, you know I have serious testimony issues and that I only attend some meetings so my wife isn't alone. You know how I've nuanced my answers in past TR interviews, so let's just make the same assumptions this time. Ask me the questions and I'll give simple yes/no answers so we can get this out of the way and I'll have something to slip into my wife's birthday card."
I think this is the chance to let your wife in on this science experiment. LDS leaders are regularly commanded to stick to the printed questions. Let your wife know that you will preface the interview with this statement and ask her if she thinks that leadership will grant you a recommend after your complete honesty. Make your ward leadership be the bad guy in this interaction. You just want to be honest, authentic, and supportive to your wife. But your bishop or SP might be a hard liner who wants LDS Uber Alles.
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:52 am
I really think I'm going to ask this time, "Pres/Bish, doesn't it strike you as just a little bit cult-y that I can't go into God's House unless I satisfy another middle-aged man that I'm wearing my underwear properly?"
This is far more honesty than they want to process. I have simply been a massive liar in front of my ward and stake leadership. During a recommend interview, leadership wants nine YES answers and 5 NO answers and then get on with their day. They don't want to complicate their volunteer leadership time by dealing with apostate questions which they are hilariously unequipped to answer.

I keep a current recommend so my wife will not be a church widow. I expect that my limited involvement in callings will create a confrontation eventually, but I still love my wife more than I dislike the church so far.

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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by wtfluff » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:09 pm

The Question:
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:52 am
...all of them think it's so important for me to have an active recommend. I don't get it. Can someone help me understand?
The Answer:
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:52 am
...all of the in-group cultish attachments.
Your ward/stake "leadership" still want you as part of the in-group/cult. They want you to continue to "enjoy" all of the in-group cultish attachments. It might just be so you can support your wife in her participation in the in-group/cult, but who cares?

Be glad your "leadership" still wants you with your openly apostate/nuanced views. I believe most "leadership" would yank your in-group/cult-membership-card in an instant to "punish" you back into believing...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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LostMormon
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by LostMormon » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:17 pm

Ask me the questions and I'll give simple yes/no answers so we can get this out of the way and I'll have something to slip into my wife's birthday card.
I hate that time of year, so I do just as you suggested, and answer with simple No, and Yes questions so I can get the dang thing over with, what right does my neighbor down the street have asking me such personal questions, and I have had bishops that don't stick to the script, it's just so degrading, and humiliating, and not only do you have to do it once, but freaking twice! what, the bishop doesn't have a good enough lie detector or what? I would like to learn the history on recommend interviews, how long has it been like this, and who came up with this crap, lol.

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Hagoth
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Hagoth » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:01 pm

Corsair wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:24 am
I think this is the chance to let your wife in on this science experiment. LDS leaders are regularly commanded to stick to the printed questions. Let your wife know that you will preface the interview with this statement and ask her if she thinks that leadership will grant you a recommend after your complete honesty. Make your ward leadership be the bad guy in this interaction. You just want to be honest, authentic, and supportive to your wife. But your bishop or SP might be a hard liner who wants LDS Uber Alles.
Last time I was completely open and honest, not in an angry or challenging way, just in a "I don't think I can answer yes to that question" sort of way. I told Mrs. Hagoth before I went in that I doubted they would grant me a recommend. She said "Why not? Ninety percent of the guys who go to the temple aren't as worthy as you." I thought it would end the madness once and for all if I just told them about my non-testimony. But no, they forced a recommend on me anyway.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Hagoth » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:04 pm

Here's a thought experiment.

I wonder what would happen if you turned the questions back on the interviewer. "No, I don't have faith and a testimony that Thomas Monson is a prophet of God. Do you really believe he is? Can you give me a few examples that support your claim?" :twisted:
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:10 pm

I've been thinking of getting mine again just for the sheer entertainment value*. The problem is it's just so nice not to have to worry about interviews with the underwear police or Friday night date sessions. Plus I don't own a pair of polygamy panties any more. I could just go in a pair of albino Hanes and a t-shirt.

I literally can't think of any reason to get one back other than to show support for the wife.

*Entertainment value consists of leaving Starbucks coffee cups, centerfolds, Democrat Party political agendas, and dirty socks in the lockers.
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oliver_denom
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by oliver_denom » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:19 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:10 pm
I've been thinking of getting mine again just for the sheer entertainment value*.
That's one hell of an expensive movie ticket.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

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Corsair
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Corsair » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:32 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:04 pm
Here's a thought experiment.

I wonder what would happen if you turned the questions back on the interviewer. "No, I don't have faith and a testimony that Thomas Monson is a prophet of God. Do you really believe he is? Can you give me a few examples that support your claim?" :twisted:
That's turning the script around in a revolutionary way. You are throwing yourself on the mercy of leadership roulette in big way and opening up the door to some conversations that will be amusing to you and deeply uncomfortable for the leadership in your ward and stake. I will give my secular prophesy that you will not receive a substantive answer to this otherwise reasonable questions. They might place their faith in the "Proclamation on the Family" as evidence of prophetic power, but faithful Mormons usually seem surprised that no one is impressed with the Family Proclamation who wasn't already a faithful Mormon.

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nibbler
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by nibbler » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:35 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:52 am
I have kept a recommend up until recently, even though my wife, Bishop, and Stake President all know I'm a non-believer and minimal participator, yet all of them think it's so important for me to have an active recommend. I don't get it. Can someone help me understand?
1) The organizational church takes a very legalistic (dare I say Pharisaical) approach to religion. There is lots and lots of fine print and bylaws in the rule book and every "i" needs to be dotted and every "t" needs to be crossed. It's far easier for someone to not run afoul of satisfying some church policy or other if they hold a TR.

Want to attend your child's sealing? You need a TR. Your leaders may be thinking that by you holding a TR they don't need to worry about bending any rules to accommodate you because they know you're a stand-up guy and they might get in trouble if they let you participate in things that require a TR.

2) I don't think this is doctrine but I think it's a part of the culture. If you die with a current TR you're "good." No worries about Bro. Hagoth going to one of those inferior TKs, he had a TR so all anxiety is put to rest, he's going to the CK. There are many people that believe something along those lines. Same person, same behaviors, but there's this concern if a person doesn't have that little piece of paper.

3) I think it's been mentioned, I need to read the thread, but holding a TR is seen as something that holds you close to the church. If you make the effort and renew that recommend the thought is that you'll be just in the periphery of everything that's awesome about the church and begin to see the errors of your ways. If you give up on renewing the recommend there will be nothing to tether you to the truth and you'll find yourself in darkness because you were off by one degree.

Heck, consider yourself lucky to have leaders like that. Many leaders I know would yank a TR based on nothing more than beliefs, irrespective of someone acting morally. Or if you really don't want a recommend... leaders change in time and soon enough I suspect you'll get a pharaoh who knows not Hagoth and will deny you your TR.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

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Hagoth
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:43 pm

Corsair wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:32 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:04 pm
Here's a thought experiment.

I wonder what would happen if you turned the questions back on the interviewer. "No, I don't have faith and a testimony that Thomas Monson is a prophet of God. Do you really believe he is? Can you give me a few examples that support your claim?" :twisted:
That's turning the script around in a revolutionary way. You are throwing yourself on the mercy of leadership roulette in big way and opening up the door to some conversations that will be amusing to you and deeply uncomfortable for the leadership in your ward and stake. I will give my secular prophesy that you will not receive a substantive answer to this otherwise reasonable questions. They might place their faith in the "Proclamation on the Family" as evidence of prophetic power, but faithful Mormons usually seem surprised that no one is impressed with the Family Proclamation who wasn't already a faithful Mormon.
This was a purely hypothetical, and not what I intend to do. Although, if the SP (who is a friend and a really great guy) really wants to get into the reasons for my disaffection I think I will tell him about all of the times I prayed and it seemed like God was telling me (via burnings in the bosom and stupors of thought) that the church is absolutely NOT true. Of course, I just put it on the shelf and blamed myself for not being able to get the correct answer. I would like to know if he thinks I should trust God more than The Brethren in this case or if he agrees that I was correct in coming to the conclusion that this kind of yes/no answering of prayers simple doesn't work, for me anyway, and that it was probably just my conscious mind emotionally confirming what some other part of my brain had already concluded and was just waiting for me to open the door. Of course, the other option is the Satan card, but I don't think he would go there.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:49 pm

Nibbler,

Thanks for the excellent observations. I think you're dead on.
nibbler wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:35 am

I realize I am very lucky. These are great, sincere guys who can see a bigger picture and don't get any kind of power trip from their callings. My SP once told me I'm the only person in the stake who he feels like he can have an honest discussion with. There have been so many times that I might have said, "screw you, I'm outta here," if I was dealing with one of those judges-in-Isreal types that I've had in other wards/stakes.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Meilingkie » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:09 am

It´s just crazy Hagoth,
Same is happeninb here, BP wants, no pleads me to please, please get a TR.
To me, and my DW. We both don´t have one.
He even said, pay just 1% tithing through the proper channels so we can see you do pay something.
And pay the remainder whichever way you wish.

Something is wrong here.

I also told him that I feel sorry for our Mutual friend, the counselor of the SP.....
SP is a moron, and an idiot with horse-blinders on.
And yes, due to closings I openly and publicly called his policies Nazi-like.
Got me some flak, so what.....

I don´t get it anymore. At all.
"Getting the Mormon out of the Church is easier than getting the Mormon out of the Ex-Mormon"

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Give It Time
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Give It Time » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:58 am

You know those pithy statements about how when a woman says"it's fine", but it actually isn't? From the woman-speak perspective, I'm going to tell you, "all I want for my birthday/anniversary/Christmas/Valentine's Day" and what follows is a gesture rather than a physical item (and I consider this a gesture), she is expressing a deep heart's desire and she will be broken hearted if you're don't give it to her and she will be resentful if you don't do it cheerfully.

I'm glad you attend occasionally to support your wife. All those other meetings she attends without you, she does to support you. Those meetings she attends without you, she is what is euphemistically called a "church widow". You know how Mormons are. If anyone is missing, they just can't let it go. I'll bet every single time she attends church alone, for even part of the day, she gets people expressing sympathy you're not there, making sarcastic comments as to why you're not there, getting people asking her how they can get you more active. It's so bad in my ward, that my son and I won't attend without each other. I don't think our ward is that unusual, either.

She gets to be surrounded by families and spouses sitting in pairs while she sits alone. She gets to hear talks, testimonies, lessons and participation comments extolling the virtues​ of and expressing gratitude for eternal families and eternal marriages. While she gets to "have faith" those things will work out for her, but knowing the fact they won't. She gets that experience, every week for at least three hours.

You're wife has made a simple request that will probably take one hour and forty minutes of passive time and, if you just give brief yes/no answers because you don't want to prolong the misery, twenty minutes of active time. Chances are excellent you'll never have to use it, but it will mean the world to this woman who has to defend you every cotton picking time you don't attend all the meetings. I don't think you're in the wrong. I think church culture needs to butt the Hell out, but it is what it is and I'm willing to bet good money I can't afford that your wife does this every Sunday you don't attend all the meetings.

So, my two cents is do this for your wife, because she makes sacrifices you don't see, because you love her, because it's her birthday and it's the only gift she wants and if you do it grudgingly it will have been better for you not to have done it, at all.

P. S. I want your bishop and SP, because mine would never feed me nuanced answers and they would never accept anything independently generated from me.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Nonny
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Nonny » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:37 am

I'm glad you expressed this Give It Time, whether this advice applies to Hagoth's situation or not. The way you described how a believing wife feels is exactly how I felt when my dh was not attending church with me for a time. It was so painful. Now that the tables are turned and I no longer want to have anything to do with the church, I just can't let my dh feel that loneliness and pity. Even if he doesn't know that is my reasoning, even if it gives him hope that there is still a chance I will change my mind. I know my own reasons and that is enough for me.

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Give It Time
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Give It Time » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:14 pm

You're welcome. I attend church with my son to support him. He only goes to Sacrament Meeting, because he hates the ward. There have been times when I have attended without him, either he wasn't feeling well or I wanted to hear the R$ lesson. Every time I was there without him, even if he'd been there earlier, that day, I'd get some question or comment or concerned leader asking about him and how they could get his attendance more consistent. There have been times he's attended without me when I wasn't feeling well and he's gotten the same thing in reverse. As I said earlier, when one stays home, we both do.

When we attend, he's frequently asked to bless the Sacrament and I'm left in the pew, by myself. It's really tough to see all the couples and families walking by and sitting together. Even though it's just the first part of the meeting, it's really tough sitting alone. When I'm an empty nester, I'm thinking I might attend a singles ward, in the area, if there is one. Not that I want to marry. It's just tough being surrounded by all those traditional families and relationships and know that I will never have that.

I've also said the"all I want" phrase. As in all I want for our anniversary is for you to treat me kindly, all day. I can tell you, there is a lot of pain behind a request like that. Guys, if your​ wife ever gives you a request like that, my personal experience is she's very unhappy. Grant the request.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

Anon70
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Re: It's that time of the every-other-year again

Post by Anon70 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:07 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:58 am
P. S. I want your bishop and SP, because mine would never feed me nuanced answers and they would never accept anything independently generated from me.
I just did mine and I totally chickened out on giving honest answers. I took the mental nuanced approach. Also getting mine for my spouse. I feel you are very fortunate with your leaders. I don't think mine would give me one if I said I don't believe anymore.

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