NOM

For many years I was terrified that my DH would learn about my growing disaffection with the church. Perhaps I did not have enough faith in him or was scarred by some of the accounts I have heard about other couples, but I had no idea how he would react.

As I have started to discuss some of my concerns with him I have been so relieved that he has been understanding and supportive.

He has also been receptive to ostensibly controversial information and appears to be concerned about a number of things like polygamy, tithing, the corporate nature of the church to name a few. He still holds tight to his testimony of Joseph Smith and his spiritual experiences though.

It makes me wonder - is there a tipping point at which someone cannot come back? Do people get to the point of having such concerns and then choose to ignore them and stay? I have felt some hope that we might some day be on the same page but I don't want to set myself up for disappointment.

LostGirl wrote: ↑

Sun May 07, 2017 2:19 am

It makes me wonder - is there a tipping point at which someone cannot come back? Do people get to the point of having such concerns and then choose to ignore them and stay? I have felt some hope that we might some day be on the same page but I don't want to set myself up for disappointment.

I think it's safe to say that tipping point would be when somebody begins to believe deep down that God does not exist, or that Jesus was a false prophet, or that Joseph Smith was a con man, or that the main Utah church made a mistake following Brigham Young, or that the church has slipped into apostasy and is in need of a new restoration (I'm trying to descend down the "severity ladder" of testimony failure, if that makes sense). Once the truth of something becomes clear, it stays that way. You can't choose what you believe.

That said, you could still remain in the church and just stay culturally LDS, but mentally you would never be able to return. I'm also assuming you aren't blurring the lines between church and spousal relationship with this question.

I think the tipping point is different for everybody, and some people never even get there; short of an apostle declaring in conference that it's all nonsense, I'm sure many have NO tipping point. Like members of my family.

But for me, it was the mall.

During the September Six nonsense in the 1990s, I went looking for a lot of the warts of church history (not to the extent I would find out later) but I was fully invested, callings that were keeping me busy 20+ per week. Just put the crazy up on a shelf. Then I got less busy with church and more with work, and while I was still going to church, temple going twice a month, doing my hometeaching, teaching every Sunday, something was missing. I think I really started to think things were a bit crazy during the Prop 8 nonsense, and with Hinckley gone the church just seemed a bit rudderless. Then a friend jokingly talked about "the Lord's true mall" and I asked, what mall? Then I read the Bloomberg article, and wondered what else "the Brethren" were hiding. So I went looking. That's why I'm here.

It's no joke why Jana Riess calls it the trust gap. I just don't trust the higher-ups like I used to.

On the bright side, I'm so glad your spouse is being supportive during this time, Lost Girl. That's most of the battle.

Yes I think the mall was when I started asking the big questions.

My experience has been a roller coaster ride with my DH. There are days when I think he is totally on board with me, and others that he decides we need to attend church and he puts his garments on. He still holds to the concept that the church is a good thing for our children. I am trying to show him that there are other churches out there that would be even better for our children.

But in the end, I think it comes back to a cultural thing. This is is tribe, where he is most comfortable. I think we will be playing this gentle tug of war for a long time.

crossmyheart wrote: ↑

Mon May 08, 2017 6:45 am

He still holds to the concept that the church is a good thing for our children. I am trying to show him that there are other churches out there that would be even better for our children.

Well, you never know. My TBM wife would sooner die than question anything that does or ever did come from "the mouths of the holy prophets", but when we went to my mother's baptist church for the candle light service one Christmas eve, she really liked it and agreed that Mormonism could use a little more of that type of thing. My point being that indeed other churches are good for your children. Possibly you can get your dh to attend some event(s) at another church or two and if you get lucky, he could have experiences that bring him just a tiny bit closer to that tipping point. Good luck!

LostGirl wrote: ↑

Sun May 07, 2017 2:19 am

It makes me wonder - is there a tipping point at which someone cannot come back? Do people get to the point of having such concerns and then choose to ignore them and stay? I have felt some hope that we might some day be on the same page but I don't want to set myself up for disappointment.

It's different for everyone. Usually it takes both an emotional and intellectual crisis at the same time. A person can know about loads of dirty laundry, but if they still love the church then they can make it work. Hardcore apologists are often in this category. A person can be annoyed or hurt by the church, but if they see it as essentially true and without real fault then they will stick with it. A lot of bored or abused members are in this category.

In my case I was bored with church while trying to make attendance on Sunday and at the temple into a truly enjoyable experience. I could not conceive of truly "spending all day at the temple" like some valiant souls do. Sabbath Day observance was difficult. But I saw the church as "true" so my discipline and work ethic compelled me to be faithful and I was. Then I ran across some accurate information on plural marriage and my testimony collapsed in an evening.

The critical point to realize is that it's different for everyone and it's nearly impossible to bring someone with you on a faith transition unless they are truly willing to go with you. If there was a consistent way for people to leave a religion then virtually all religions would have collapsed long ago, especially Mormonism.

Corsair wrote: ↑

Sun May 14, 2017 10:31 pm

LostGirl wrote: ↑

Sun May 07, 2017 2:19 am

It makes me wonder - is there a tipping point at which someone cannot come back? Do people get to the point of having such concerns and then choose to ignore them and stay? I have felt some hope that we might some day be on the same page but I don't want to set myself up for disappointment.

It's different for everyone. Usually it takes both an emotional and intellectual crisis at the same time. A person can know about loads of dirty laundry, but if they still love the church then they can make it work. Hardcore apologists are often in this category. A person can be annoyed or hurt by the church, but if they see it as essentially true and without real fault then they will stick with it. A lot of bored or abused members are in this category.

In my case I was bored with church while trying to make attendance on Sunday and at the temple into a truly enjoyable experience. I could not conceive of truly "spending all day at the temple" like some valiant souls do. Sabbath Day observance was difficult. But I saw the church as "true" so my discipline and work ethic compelled me to be faithful and I was. Then I ran across some accurate information on plural marriage and my testimony collapsed in an evening.

The critical point to realize is that it's different for everyone and it's nearly impossible to bring someone with you on a faith transition unless they are truly willing to go with you. If there was a consistent way for people to leave a religion then virtually all religions would have collapsed long ago, especially Mormonism.

Good point how each's reasoning is unique.
For you, it had to do with polygamy. For me, it was a combo but mainly another church shopping mall & investigating church finances. Maybe it has to do with strong underlying values that the church crosses. And motivation, energy and maybe education somewhat.

Corsair wrote: ↑

Sun May 14, 2017 10:31 pm

It's different for everyone. Usually it takes both an emotional and intellectual crisis at the same time. A person can know about loads of dirty laundry, but if they still love the church then they can make it work. Hardcore apologists are often in this category. A person can be annoyed or hurt by the church, but if they see it as essentially true and without real fault then they will stick with it. A lot of bored or abused members are in this category.

Education I think was the nail in the coffin for my testimony. There were annoyances, dislikes, and even hates, about the church but as long as the bumped against "I can't deny my spiritual experiences!" I wasn't going anywhere. It wasn't until a science education even made me aware that epistemology was a thing, until it taught me to think critically, to analyse if the weight of evidence was sufficient to believe something that I as in a position to leave.

What's funny looking back is that as my intellectual crisis grew I took a step back from junior apologetics I was engaging in on LDS.net. I retreated into an area I recognized was not intellectually defensible and built myself a little fort of, "I experienced something, it must be true." Really it was setting myself up for an even more rapid transition from believer to non-believer when my examining my epistemology basically leveled the walls of my fort. I basically retreated myself to the edge of the cliff I fell off of.

In my case I was bored with church while trying to make attendance on Sunday and at the temple into a truly enjoyable experience. I could not conceive of truly "spending all day at the temple" like some valiant souls do.

I came to dread the wife uttering the words, "I want to go to the temple this weekend." I remember distinctly the final time I went when I did an about face in the lobby and just went back to the car to wait. I knew she'd be angry, I knew as a Mormon I should relish attendance, but the dissonance between the sheer boredom and drudgery of the temple and what the faithful narrative said it was supposed to be just meant I couldn't regardless of why I was supposed to or any potential hit to marital bliss.

LostGirl wrote: ↑

Sun May 07, 2017 2:19 am

Do people get to the point of having such concerns and then choose to ignore them and stay? I have felt some hope that we might some day be on the same page but I don't want to set myself up for disappointment.

When I first started voicing concerns to my ex-wife, she started doing a little research. There were times that I thought she would go NOM with me, and then maybe leave altogether. Looking back, I think a lot of the comments she would make, like agreeing with me when I said things like "There's no way God truly cares which church you go to, as long as you are following his word", was just her way of trying to support me in my NOM-ness. I don't think she actually agreed with me.

There were times I felt guilty about trying to "expose" the "truth" behind Mormonism to her. I felt like the Church was manipulating her to stay, and I was doing the same thing but trying to manipulate her to leave the church.

In the end, she did put aside the questions and stayed TBM. It's scary getting to that cognitive dissonance point - if you don't quite have the courage, going back to the "safe zone" is so much easier than continuing to explore, and that's what she did. Went back to the safe zone.