"Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Batman
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"Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Post by Batman » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:31 pm

I think I might have told the BP too much. Long post, sorry!
A little background: I hold a calling in the primary, DW fully believing with kids in primary. DS turning 12 soon and had an appointment with the BP. I have been dreading this milestone for several years. I knew I would have to decide whether or not I would do the ordination as a non-believer, or if I would take a stand so that I could live as honestly as possible with myself and let someone else do it. Would my kids resent me pretending once they grew up and found out that I did not believe, but went along with everything anyway? DW knows I don’t believe, but thinks I should do it because I still hold the priesthood, even if I don’t believe in it. I told her that I am not sure I could honestly do it.

Before the interviews I told my kids that fathers will typically do the ordination, but that I probably would not, because I have some different beliefs than I used to. I said that I disagree with the church on some things as well. They asked what they were, but I told them now was not the time to get into it. I had not discussed having this conversation with DW before, so I did not want to go into details. They seemed to take it pretty well. I told them that I would support all of them in whatever they chose to do with their lives and love them no matter what. I just had to be honest with myself.

Our BP is a great guy and I have no problems with him. Before the interview he told me I could wait outside. I said, “No, I will come in and join you.” He seemed a little shocked, but I think DS was glad I was there. The interview went fine, but I could tell he was a little uncomfortable with me in the room. Once we wrapped up, he asked to meet with me alone. I cut right to the chase and said that with my current beliefs, I would most likely not be doing the ordination. He was a little surprised. I said that I have to be honest with myself and my kids and not pretend in something I don’t believe. I told him I don’t believe everything I used to, but that I thing that living a life like Jesus taught is a great way to live.

He wanted to know what my hang up was. He worded it as if there was just one thing I could not get over. I told him that we did not have time to go into all of it, and that I don’t believe in all of the truth claims of the church. He asked, “Truth claims?” We did not go into much after that and he said I should really pray to God and find out what he would want me to do about this. He said although we did not have time then to talk, he really wants to sit and visit with me about what is going on. I don’t think anything productive will come of this other than him recognizing I am a total apostate and non-believer. My kids will soon be getting the frequent message that I am a lazy and unworthy priesthood holder.

So, has anyone else crossed this bridge? What did you do, and would you do it differently? Would you meet with the bishop? I have tried to keep from giving too many details on my unbelief. I am not sure much good can come from it. I really hate this.

Korihor
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Re: "Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Post by Korihor » Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:21 pm

I feel like my experience as a few commonalities with yours. But I don't have my son's ordination pending or anything like that.

I just told the bishop I don't believe, I even wrote an email to him about it. I didn't go into any details, but left that door open if they wanted. I posted a copy of the letter on the old site, I'll repost it here for you.

It seems to me as long as you keep coming to church, they'll just leave you alone. You might get a terrible leader that condemns you to hell, but mostly they just don't want to stir the pot. They've got affairs, pornography and tithing to worry about. Your little problems of lacking faith aren't high on the to-do list as long as you don't cause problems.

My advice - just ordain your son. It's all make believe anyway so no harm no foul. It'll mean something to your son even if it doesn't mean much to you anymore. Plenty of people here can give good advice why it's OK to do it even if you don't believe and how to reason it out in your mind.

Just because some else might be better at teaching your son how to ride a bike, does that mean you shouldn't do it? If your son like baseball and you hate baseball, does that mean you shouldn't play it with him? How is this any different? Doing something for your family makes you the appropriate host for anything. Ordain him and give him a blessing that you think is best. Screw the TSCC's customs/ideals.
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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Red Ryder
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Re: "Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:36 pm

I crossed this exact bridge about a year ago.

I ordained my son without a current TR and the same lack of belief you exhibit.

I did this because for 12 years, I have fed, clothed, and cared for this kid. I donated my very own sperm to help in creating him and by golly I wasn't going to give any other male the opportunity to put their hands on his head and make him a deacon. The ordination wasn't about me or my lack of beliefs. It was about him and the traditions of the church having been passed down from father to son. To me, the tradition was more important to the family than me standing up for my lack of beliefs. It was also a chance for me to have a few minutes to say anything I wanted to him with the whole extended family held hostage.

I didn't follow the standard mormon pattern of cliche's and repeat an ordination everyone has heard 100 times. I owned my words and expressed my love for him and the desires I wanted to see him accomplish in his life. I poured on the heartsell and I made everyone in that Bishop's office cry. I purposefully did this to prove that a guy without a temple recommend could still make them all feel the spirit. I received so many compliments from every adult in that room. Did I manipulate the situation? You bet I did! I can beat the church at its own game and I took the opportunity to do so. I don't regret it at all. I wasn't going to take an asterisk or any other option.

Here is my advice for what it's worth when you meet with your bishop. If you want to stay under the radar and have a chance to do the ordination, then pick one simple issue that he can't resolve. Like polygamy/age of Joseph Smith's brides. You sit down with him and explain that you've heard all these new things and that they have caused some discomfort. You're trying your hardest to reconcile your feelings and belief in polygamy. And until then, you don't feel like you can do the ordination. He will then try to convince you that you are worthy to do it.

Remind him that a temple recommend is not required to perform an ordination according to the handbook. Remind him of the conference talk by Packer where the father was sitting out, and Packet pulled the Father in to do the ordination because it's the father's right.

I was stressed out for weeks prior because I was worried about all of the same issues as you. In the end, it was a non event and to this day I don't regret my decision.
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Batman
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Re: "Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Post by Batman » Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:12 am

Thanks for the thoughts Korihor and Red Ryder. Maybe Mrs. Batman was right in thinking I should do it even with my unbelief. But, sometimes you just want to take a stand you know!?

I do like the idea of bringing up an issue or two that I can't resolve and see where he goes with that. Last November's policy and Joseph's marrying of young brides while lying to Emma would work easily for me.

I will update as things progress.

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hiding in plain sight
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Re: "Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Post by hiding in plain sight » Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:27 am

I haven't crossed this bridge with a church leader yet. And don't necessarily plan to either for the foreseeable future.

But now that you have started, this is how I imagine my future conversation with the BP or SP going.

I would ask them to go first. I would ask them to put a stake in the ground. I would probably start with this question first.

What must be true for the church to be true?

Depending on their answer, I would try to work with them and have them commit to some solid statements of truth.

For example. If they say, well the book of mormon must be true for the church to be true.

I would work with them to get them to define what true means in this example.

Does true mean that it is a literal history?

Does true mean that Nephi and the brother of jared were real people at a real time in history.

Does true mean it teaches a real fullness of the gospel?

What does fulness of the gospel mean?

Does true mean it is a literal translation of literal plates?

Once you get them nailed down on some specifics of what "true" means to them, then you can begin to talk about things like:

1) anachronisms

2) there was no tower of babel or global flood 4000 years ago

3) the BOM teaches a false plan of salvation (i.e., literal hell)

4) It contains KJV translation errors

5) etc. etc. etc.

If you don't get them to be the first ones to make truth claims, I promise you they will just move the goal post every time you bring up an issue and you will both be frustrated.

I have never had a conversation with a leader, but this is exactly what TBM members do all the freaking time.

Good luck.

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Corsair
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Re: "Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Post by Corsair » Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:17 pm

hiding in plain sight wrote:If you don't get them to be the first ones to make truth claims, I promise you they will just move the goal post every time you bring up an issue and you will both be frustrated.

I have never had a conversation with a leader, but this is exactly what TBM members do all the freaking time.

Good luck.
I really like your philosophy. If we, as unbelievers, bring up issues it usually ends up poorly because we just look faithless to the believers. We can't fire the first rhetorical shot. Instead, we have to convince the believer to carefully define their best truth claims first. They only think they are choosing the battleground. Because the real battleground we are staking out is epistemology and we have to encourage the believer to expose the unguarded flanks they have never considered. LDS doctrine is based ultimately on "feeling the spirit" and "having a testimony" which is a very flimsy basis for belief.

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deacon blues
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Re: "Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Post by deacon blues » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:08 pm

I'm reminded of when I was ordained a deacon. The person who ordained me, a close relative, took me out for lunch about a week before my ordination and ordered coffee. Well, as an 11 year old raised in Rexburg, Idaho, I wondered if my ordination would really "take full effect". It didn't take long to realize that it didn't matter if the person drank coffee. In fact if I had been ordained by an adulterer are thief, it wouldn't have mattered. Has anyone ever heard of an ordination being done over, because it was later discovered that the person doing the ordaining wasn't worthy? I never have.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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ThirdTier
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Re: "Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Post by ThirdTier » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:00 pm

I asked my father to come and ordain my son. I didn't feel any unworthiness to do it myself. Just didn't want to make trouble for anyone as I was an outed nonbeliever . That way it was in the family. Last thing I would want was for BP to do it.
"I wish I was special" Radiohead, Creep

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Batman
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Re: "Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Post by Batman » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:14 am

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. I don't believe the ordinance would be invalid because I am not a believer. And I am fully "worthy" to do it. I may have a conversation with the BP before this all happens and see what he thinks has to be true for the church to be true. I might then give a couple of my main issues that are not easy to resolve. If he says I should do it anyway, then maybe I will. I think it would make my DW happy. Otherwise, I have grandfathers that can do it. I will definitely be keeping this in the family.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: "Hey Batman, some Bruce Wayne is showing!"

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:40 am

At times there are PH's who are not worthy to perform ordinances. Sometimes they are bishops having affairs, etc... but the ordinances are never redone. The PH is still in place according to the church since they are acting in a formal capacity for the church which still has the PH.

I agree with Kish (Korihor) that it is all a formality that has no true power, but if it does, the church authorized you to act in official capacity.

It will be important for your son and family. I am in a similar place on DD #4's baptism next month. DW knows mostly where I am, but isn't even questioning it. I even asked her and she thought it was funny I was even considering not doing it.

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