DW Digging In Somewhat

[Deepthinker]

Quite a bit has happened since I last posted on NOM. We attended General Conference as a family, the Saturday morning session. I dozed for a few minutes after Uchtdorf’s opening talk, as did my daughter.

In between watching the Sunday sessions at home DW asks me a question: “Why don’t you leave the church?” It caught me somewhat off guard. I gave her a positive answer, which was truthful, but didn’t give her all the reasons I don’t leave. I told her that I believe in the core principles, that I still see the good in it. She said she didn’t really understand even after giving that answer.

I thought about it for a few days, wanting to bring it up again and tell her my other reasons, but opportunities didn’t happen. Not wanting to lose the momentum of her question, I sent her an email explaining my “other” reasons. That I love her and the kids, I go for her and them as one of my reasons. I told her that I could live with how others might think of and treat me, but I didn’t want that for her or the kids. That I didn’t want our family to become a “project”.

I told her that I didn’t want to take the church away from her, that I didn’t want it to affect our relationship or my relationship with our kids, or any other family members.

She didn’t say anything for a few days. I waited for her to bring it up. In fact, I noticed she wouldn’t look me in the eye for a few days after sending the email. That hurt.

During the following fast and testimony meeting I told her I was thinking about bearing my testimony. She gave me a funny look and after church asked what I would even have to say based on the email I sent to her. She starts expressing how what I said in the email made her feel. She was upset. She felt like she was on her own with the kids. That she thought when we were married I would always make the right choices for our family.

I apologized to her and told her that what she is saying makes me feel like she doesn’t understand. That I haven’t stopped doing what I thought was the right decisions for our family. I reminded her that I haven’t said anything negative about the church to our kids.

I told her that I am going to bear my testimony next fast Sunday. I plan to create a separate thread about that to get feedback on my “NOM” testimony.

Anyway, I feel like there was progress, she is working through and starting to accept where I am. We’ve been talking more since the email.

Since then, though, she has started “digging in”. She bore testimony that she knows the BoM is true to our kids (she’s never done that before). She’s upped her effort on making sure we read scriptures together and say family prayers.

[FreeBird]

I think staying or going are both valid choices, and you should choose the option that is best for you and your family.

I have a friend who stays in the church because (1) he thinks he's a better person with the church in his life and (2) he thinks the church is better with him in it. I think that's a pretty thoughtful reason for staying. Do you think your wife would find that rationale more compelling?

I attended for about a year after I completely stopped believing, for many of the same reasons you list. Ultimately, however, it wasn't very good for my mental health. Personally, I think I became a better husband and father after I stopped attending church. I've just been a lot happier.

[Deepthinker]

I think staying or going are both valid choices, and you should choose the option that is best for you and your family.

I have a friend who stays in the church because (1) he thinks he's a better person with the church in his life and (2) he thinks the church is better with him in it. I think that's a pretty thoughtful reason for staying. Do you think your wife would find that rationale more compelling?

I attended for about a year after I completely stopped believing, for many of the same reasons you list. Ultimately, however, it wasn't very good for my mental health. Personally, I think I became a better husband and father after I stopped attending church. I've just been a lot happier.

I don’t believe I’m a better person with the church in my life. I’m the same either way, in or out. I also don’t know whether the church would be better with me in it.

I’ve already told my wife that I find more philosophical inspiration outside of the church, and that even though there are some good things said, some good talks, in general I don’t find it inspiring. I told her I think it’s boring.

Sorry, those two reasons don’t work for me so I would never say they did to my wife. I get that for others those are valid reasons for them to keep going to church.

[FreeBird]

Sorry, those two reasons don’t work for me so I would never say they did to my wife. I get that for others those are valid reasons for them to keep going to church.

Fair enough - they don't work for me, either. I think the reasons you listed above are perfectly valid, as well. From my reading, I see your continued participation as an act of love. With time, perhaps your wife will see it that way, too.

[Deepthinker]

Sorry, those two reasons don’t work for me so I would never say they did to my wife. I get that for others those are valid reasons for them to keep going to church.

Fair enough - they don't work for me, either. I think the reasons you listed above are perfectly valid, as well. From my reading, I see your continued participation as an act of love. With time, perhaps your wife will see it that way, too.

Thanks, I am doing it because I love her and I'm glad she now knows that. I was reminded recently after reading on here that I need to reinforce that while I could leave the church, that doesn't mean I would leave her as well.

The Mormon Stories interview with the "ordinary" family really touched me. The experience the wife shared when it finally clicked. She immediately thought of how much her husband must love her to go through all of things we NOMs do in still staying active. Whether or not DW follows me in my faith transition, I do hope she realizes how much I love her.

[Mormorrisey]

Feeling for you, brother. Sister M is likewise digging in. Won't hijack this post with the details, but it's tough. The only thing now I get testy at is when she has "sad days." As in, sad for the decisions I'm making. Not much I can do with this, so I feel your pain.

[Red Ryder]

This post has helped me think of a few things.

Better communication starts with talking.

Talking is always a delicate balance since emotions can derail a conversation.

Writing out our thoughts are a good idea but can be easily taken out of context due to the lack of emotion and non verbal cues.

Discussions between couples are necessary. Pretending and hiding a disaffection never works out in the long run.

[hiding in plain sight]

I thought about it for a few days, wanting to bring it up again and tell her my other reasons, but opportunities didn’t happen. Not wanting to lose the momentum of her question, I sent her an email explaining my “other” reasons. That I love her and the kids, I go for her and them as one of my reasons. I told her that I could live with how others might think of and treat me, but I didn’t want that for her or the kids. That I didn’t want our family to become a “project”.

I told her that I didn’t want to take the church away from her, that I didn’t want it to affect our relationship or my relationship with our kids, or any other family members.

She didn’t say anything for a few days. I waited for her to bring it up. In fact, I noticed she wouldn’t look me in the eye for a few days after sending the email. That hurt.

I think you are doing the right thing by trying to continue the conversation and help to reduce miscommunication or misunderstandings. But clearly it is tough. She is hearing things with her own ears and perceptions. And you are saying things and intending a certain level of communication with your own ideas and perceptions.

The challenge is in recognizing that you are on different wavelengths now. How do you modify how you communicate to do the translation for how she is going to hear what you are saying.

Also, how do you find a way to build upon common ground and grow closer together and not drive a wedge between you and grow farther apart.

That is the key. Which if it was easy we wouldn't need NOM.

All the best. I am in it with you.

[Meilingkie]

Go to church, support here, but above all. Make it clear for her you love her because of her being.
It´s a woman´s biggest fear.
A Templemarriage almost by definition is abusive in this way.
You leave the Church means you walk out of a templemarriage at the same time.
It´s the only marriage she probably has, and a core of her being.

Even I had to figure that out, and I have 2 marriages being in Europe. A civil/legal one, and a Templemarriage.
Nowadays we are at the point where she encourages me to stay home sometimes, for my own sanity.

[Deepthinker]

This post has helped me think of a few things.

Better communication starts with talking.

Talking is always a delicate balance since emotions can derail a conversation.

Writing out our thoughts are a good idea but can be easily taken out of context due to the lack of emotion and non verbal cues.

Discussions between couples are necessary. Pretending and hiding a disaffection never works out in the long run.

Thanks RR, some sound advice.

The problem I've had is that DW doesn't want to talk about my transition. I've tried to let her bring things up, and haven't pushed talking about it.

She shuts down those conversations even when she starts them, and I've thought emails have been one way to get my thoughts communicated to her, but they do backfire sometimes. Then it becomes something we can talk about and I can explain context.

[Deepthinker]

Go to church, support here, but above all. Make it clear for her you love her because of her being.
It´s a woman´s biggest fear.
A Templemarriage almost by definition is abusive in this way.
You leave the Church means you walk out of a templemarriage at the same time.
It´s the only marriage she probably has, and a core of her being.

Even I had to figure that out, and I have 2 marriages being in Europe. A civil/legal one, and a Templemarriage.
Nowadays we are at the point where she encourages me to stay home sometimes, for my own sanity.

Yes, I always need to be reminded about making sure DW doesn't question my love for her. To me, it's a given that I love her. The anger I've expressed is towards the betrayal felt about the church, and doesn't change how I feel about her.

[Not Buying It]

I think you are going to see a lot more digging in from believers. They are feeling more and more threatened. They see more people leaving the Church. They noticed how they Brethren were so obsessive about not leaving the Church in their messages from the last few General Conferences. And what's more, they know they don't have any answers for why it was OK for Joseph Smith to marry foster daughters and 14 year old daughters of friends and his friends' wives and pretty much any female who caught his eye in Nauvoo. They can't tell you why Joseph Smith's translations of the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham have been definitively declared nonsense by every reputable Egyptologist who ever looked at them. They can't explain the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. They don't know why the Brethren have such a vendetta against gays. They have no rational answers as to why women in the Church can't have the priesthood. They don't have the first clue why the Church was so bigoted against blacks until 1978.

They have exactly zero good answers to hard question (in spite of FAIR). But they have been taught to have faith in the Church no matter what, so their instinctive response is to dig in and fight as hard as they can to hold onto their faith in the face of all the evidence against it.

Their world is crumbling. That is why they are digging in. And there will be more of it to come, I am sure.

[MalcolmVillager]

That is so hard. We doubters are seen as the covenant breakers who are not living up to the lice we committed to originally. I get why they are angry. It is hard! You can get through it! Dig in on your live and commitment to her and the kids.

[Vlad the Emailer]

Deepthinker, you're clearly making a valiant effort to value, love, and care for your DW. It's heartbreakingly sad how she has been conditioned to not value you and to treat you as lesser than, (by Jesus' church, no less!!) based on your inability to ignore or accept the uncomfortable (and unforgivable) realities of the church she insists on holding so dear.

You're doing all you can and then some. It is up to her to recognize that and give you the credit you are due. Unfortunately, it may come to a point where you need to start telling her that.

[Deepthinker]

Deepthinker, you're clearly making a valiant effort to value, love, and care for your DW. It's heartbreakingly sad how she has been conditioned to not value you and to treat you as lesser than, (by Jesus' church, no less!!) based on your inability to ignore or accept the uncomfortable (and unforgivable) realities of the church she insists on holding so dear.

You're doing all you can and then some. It is up to her to recognize that and give you the credit you are due. Unfortunately, it may come to a point where you need to start telling her that.

Thanks Vlad. One good thing that helps me with my wife is that she didn't have the typical Utah Mormon background. She lived a military life growing up and has definitely seen outside the Mormon bubble. There are some things she clearly sees as wrong, but she overlooks the issues in favor of being part of the community. I did that for years, which is what I keep reminding myself.