Temple marriages are stronger?

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Random
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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by Random » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:10 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 10:07 am
I don't know if Catholics have a lower divorce rate as a result. Surely there is data about this somewhere.
Maybe a lower divorce rate, but there are a lot of them living with someone else. In other words, an informal divorce. Then they find a girlfriend or boyfriend, and they move in together. Essentially, they are married but they can't (in their minds) legally divorce and remarry because their Church forbids it.
source: my own observation
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Random
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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by Random » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:11 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 12:28 pm
Just an anecdote about a Catholic marriage. My nephew married a Catholic. They had two kids and the marriage fell apart. They weren't allowed to divorce, because she's Catholic, so they're both living in sin with separate partners.
Yep. Very common.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
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Corsair
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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by Corsair » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:16 am

Give It Time wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 12:28 pm
Just an anecdote about a Catholic marriage. My nephew married a Catholic. They had two kids and the marriage fell apart. They weren't allowed to divorce, because she's Catholic, so they're both living in sin with separate partners.
Mormons do have a weaker version of this phenomena, of course. Sealing cancellations are rarely granted unless the divorced woman is trying to be sealed to another living man. Marriages form and dissolve legally and LDS couples only arrange for reworking the bonds of a sealing after the fact.

Years ago as a ward clerk I was tasked with writing letters for my bishop to facilitate a couple of sealing cancellations. Through talking with a few people who had been through this process I ended up with a template that had all the right buzzwords to make the process happen a little faster. I pulled it out recently to assist a family friend going through this process. PM me if anyone wants a copy.

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Hermey
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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by Hermey » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:20 pm

My father was born and raised Catholic. He attended Catholic grammar, middle, high school, and college. When he went to marry my mother in 1968, the Catholic church would not recognize (or perform) the marriage because my mother (never Catholic) was a divorced woman. This issue was the straw that broke the camel's back for him. He left the religion after that, having no use for it.

Korihor
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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by Korihor » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:10 am

I'm a little late to this party. I think my marriage conviction is stronger Post faith crisis. I still with it because I want to, not because I'm coerced to.

There are ways that a temple marriage could be viewed as stronger, but I think this strength comes from guilt, coersion, shame, peer pressure, indoctrination and the fear of God. Love is used to mask these underlying ties.

I think many TBM's genuinely love each other in spite of their temple marriage, not because of it.
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document
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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by document » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:16 pm

My co-parent and I both agree that we would probably still be married if we had remained active LDS. I've thought about this a lot over the years since my separation and divorce, and here are my insights as to why:

First, when we were fully active LDS we had one massive commonality between us: Mormonism. We had common friends, activities, beliefs, and goals that were consistently in our life. We even had a common subject that we talked about, the church, the programs, and the membership. That was our commonality.

Second, when we were fully active LDS we were constantly working in the church when we should have been addressing significant issues in the relationship. Our date nights were spent at the temple, not in conversation. We had activities or committees every single day and half our Sundays were spent at church. Monday nights we implemented family home evening as best we could and we strove to be good home/visiting teachers.

Third, we had the continual end-goal of eternal marriage. When we left the church and our concept of the after-life shifted significantly, suddenly "temporal marriage" sounded a lot more important to us than "eternal marriage". We couldn't put off the problems because we realized that this life was pretty much it, so we best make the best out of it.

Basically, when we left the church I sat across from this woman whom I had survived with for the last ten years. When the commonality of culture, the constant activity, and the after-life goal was gone, we were able to look at each other. We didn't recognize each other, we were just two strangers who now had one thing we did well together, work hard. We could juggle fifty things at once and do it with a cool head.

Anyway, with so much work out of the way and children becoming so much more independent (they do that), we started trying to work together to rebuild our marriage. But here is the thing: we had massive personality conflicts and no common interests. We tried for a long time to get something back, but we were too far gone. Our lives wrapped around a single thing: Mormonism (our temple marriage). We were married for the sake of being married. In fact, we both admitted to ourselves that we were married in the first place for the sake of getting married. That was a very hard confession when we came to that fact.

I think Spencer Kimball had it right in many cases, any two active Mormons who are completely dedicated to the gospel can make a marriage work. But that is only because you are so busy being fully active, being overwhelmed with children, and having Mormonism in common, that the insanity of that thought will keep two people together. But only because they can't think about their relationship, they are merely surviving.

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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:55 am

I was married in "the Temple"....and married for 25 years. I stayed longer because of the pressure of CK worthiness.

It was that pressure that forced a discovery, a life changing series of realizations: the church gives you the choices righteous vs wickedness; you get to choose between those as those are the only options. But I found myself struggling inside emotionally in ways I couldn't understand. All I knew was my insides were churning as though something was being suffocated.

Through that struggle, I realized there is a third option, something the Church doesn't recognize, let alone even acknowledge as a realistic option. The third option is not in the spectrum between righteous and wicked,...the third option is "authentic".

I wasn't living an authentic life.

When that realization happened, the marriage was over, and even more dramatically, my involvement with the church WAS OVER!. I am NOT going back. How can I? The church claims that truth is essential for salvation, and they suppress the "truth" in favor or church image. Its a false dichotomy, a false focus. Its deceptive.

I think temple marriage serves a single purpose, and I think there is another way to think about this. This thread is about "temple marriages are stronger?"....but that is a misnomer because stronger or weaker, as far as the marriage is concerned, misses what I believe the point is. The question may be: "Temple marriage keeps people locked into the church?"....this is probably a more accurate question, though the original is certainly interesting in and of itself.

No intent to hijack the thread at all. I am literally ONLY suggesting an alternate way to consider what may or may not be going on. The church has directly (in some cases) and indirectly (at the least) gotten involved in every aspect of marriage, including the bedroom. So, with that involvement, is the focus really making marriages stronger, or is the focus keeping people locked into deferral to the external authority of the Q15, and not making decisions about their own lives through informed and open consent?

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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by Stig » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:41 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:55 am
I was married in "the Temple"....and married for 25 years. I stayed longer because of the pressure of CK worthiness.

It was that pressure that forced a discovery, a life changing series of realizations: the church gives you the choices righteous vs wickedness; you get to choose between those as those are the only options. But I found myself struggling inside emotionally in ways I couldn't understand. All I knew was my insides were churning as though something was being suffocated.

Through that struggle, I realized there is a third option, something the Church doesn't recognize, let alone even acknowledge as a realistic option. The third option is not in the spectrum between righteous and wicked,...the third option is "authentic".

I wasn't living an authentic life.

When that realization happened, the marriage was over, and even more dramatically, my involvement with the church WAS OVER!. I am NOT going back. How can I? The church claims that truth is essential for salvation, and they suppress the "truth" in favor or church image. Its a false dichotomy, a false focus. Its deceptive.

I think temple marriage serves a single purpose, and I think there is another way to think about this. This thread is about "temple marriages are stronger?"....but that is a misnomer because stronger or weaker, as far as the marriage is concerned, misses what I believe the point is. The question may be: "Temple marriage keeps people locked into the church?"....this is probably a more accurate question, though the original is certainly interesting in and of itself.

No intent to hijack the thread at all. I am literally ONLY suggesting an alternate way to consider what may or may not be going on. The church has directly (in some cases) and indirectly (at the least) gotten involved in every aspect of marriage, including the bedroom. So, with that involvement, is the focus really making marriages stronger, or is the focus keeping people locked into deferral to the external authority of the Q15, and not making decisions about their own lives through informed and open consent?
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Give It Time
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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by Give It Time » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:10 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:55 am
I was married in "the Temple"....and married for 25 years. I stayed longer because of the pressure of CK worthiness.

It was that pressure that forced a discovery, a life changing series of realizations: the church gives you the choices righteous vs wickedness; you get to choose between those as those are the only options. But I found myself struggling inside emotionally in ways I couldn't understand. All I knew was my insides were churning as though something was being suffocated.

Through that struggle, I realized there is a third option, something the Church doesn't recognize, let alone even acknowledge as a realistic option. The third option is not in the spectrum between righteous and wicked,...the third option is "authentic".

I wasn't living an authentic life.

When that realization happened, the marriage was over, and even more dramatically, my involvement with the church WAS OVER!. I am NOT going back. How can I? The church claims that truth is essential for salvation, and they suppress the "truth" in favor or church image. Its a false dichotomy, a false focus. Its deceptive.

I think temple marriage serves a single purpose, and I think there is another way to think about this. This thread is about "temple marriages are stronger?"....but that is a misnomer because stronger or weaker, as far as the marriage is concerned, misses what I believe the point is. The question may be: "Temple marriage keeps people locked into the church?"....this is probably a more accurate question, though the original is certainly interesting in and of itself.

No intent to hijack the thread at all. I am literally ONLY suggesting an alternate way to consider what may or may not be going on. The church has directly (in some cases) and indirectly (at the least) gotten involved in every aspect of marriage, including the bedroom. So, with that involvement, is the focus really making marriages stronger, or is the focus keeping people locked into deferral to the external authority of the Q15, and not making decisions about their own lives through informed and open consent?
This is so excellent. I've become jaded on marriage. I've come to the conclusion that, for a myriad of reasons, marriage isn't for everybody. Yet, when I learn of one spouse mistreating the other, or seeking validation for the behavior. That's just too far.

See, strong/weak, I believe is an imperfect measure. I like the word authentic better, too. Two people who are authentically devoted to one another, authentically a team, authentically caring, authentically love one another. I believe in marriages like those.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Random
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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by Random » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:04 pm

I second that standing ovation, Stig.
Stig wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:41 am
Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:55 am
I was married in "the Temple"....and married for 25 years. I stayed longer because of the pressure of CK worthiness.

It was that pressure that forced a discovery, a life changing series of realizations: the church gives you the choices righteous vs wickedness; you get to choose between those as those are the only options. But I found myself struggling inside emotionally in ways I couldn't understand. All I knew was my insides were churning as though something was being suffocated.

Through that struggle, I realized there is a third option, something the Church doesn't recognize, let alone even acknowledge as a realistic option. The third option is not in the spectrum between righteous and wicked,...the third option is "authentic".

I wasn't living an authentic life.

When that realization happened, the marriage was over, and even more dramatically, my involvement with the church WAS OVER!. I am NOT going back. How can I? The church claims that truth is essential for salvation, and they suppress the "truth" in favor or church image. Its a false dichotomy, a false focus. Its deceptive.

I think temple marriage serves a single purpose, and I think there is another way to think about this. This thread is about "temple marriages are stronger?"....but that is a misnomer because stronger or weaker, as far as the marriage is concerned, misses what I believe the point is. The question may be: "Temple marriage keeps people locked into the church?"....this is probably a more accurate question, though the original is certainly interesting in and of itself.

No intent to hijack the thread at all. I am literally ONLY suggesting an alternate way to consider what may or may not be going on. The church has directly (in some cases) and indirectly (at the least) gotten involved in every aspect of marriage, including the bedroom. So, with that involvement, is the focus really making marriages stronger, or is the focus keeping people locked into deferral to the external authority of the Q15, and not making decisions about their own lives through informed and open consent?
Image
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

a1986
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Re: Temple marriages are stronger?

Post by a1986 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:14 pm

Particularly given that temple marriage gives rise to "if you can't go to the Celestial Kingdom with me, why should I bother with our marriage?" I can see how temple marriage could help shore up some marriages with a sense of duty and obligation, but I've seen it result in inflexible marriages. Also if that sense of duty and obligation doesn't result in improvement of the relationship but simply a reluctance to divorce, sure the marriage may persist, but is that healthy?
[/quote]

I would say no, it's not healthy at all. Take my sister in law and brother in law for instance . . . they barely seem to like each other, and really seem to force the relationship a bit. It works because he's the money maker and she's the baby maker and they're both fine living out those roles. I would not say they have a relationship I'd want personally. The only thing seemingly keeping them together is their sense of duty / commitment to the church (along with not wanting to embarass themselves / tarnish their standing in the church / upset their TBM parents). It's so odd. . . ok well more like sickening. . . to me.

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