Page 1 of 2
Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 5:55 am
by LostGirl
Our rs lesson was about temple marriage and how being married in the temple makes it stronger because you are ostensibly more likely to fight harder for a marriage for eternity.
Don't know about you but as an emerging apostate I find myself fighting harder for my marriage than ever before.
I get tired of the temple sealing being set up as some sort of universal panacea that provides a rock solid foundation for any marriage.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 6:07 am
by Give It Time
LostGirl wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 5:55 am
Our rs lesson was about temple marriage and how being married in the temple makes it stronger because you are ostensibly more likely to fight harder for a marriage for eternity.
Don't know about you but as an emerging apostate I find myself fighting harder for my marriage than ever before.
I get tired of the temple sealing being set up as some sort of universal panacea that provides a rock solid foundation for any marriage.
They're also a trap for abuse victims. I don't care if abuse is, according to GBH, a blip here or a blip there (which it isn't). One abuse victim trapped in a marriage is too many and all abuse victims should be able to walk out of a marriage with their heads held high into the loving and supportive embrace of their ward family. Period.
I think I'll rent a billboard as close to the temple and COB as possible and put a statement saying essentially that on it.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:14 am
by Dravin
LostGirl wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 5:55 am
Our rs lesson was about temple marriage and how being married in the temple makes it stronger because you are ostensibly more likely to fight harder for a marriage for eternity.
Don't know about you but as an emerging apostate I find myself fighting harder for my marriage than ever before.
I get tired of the temple sealing being set up as some sort of universal panacea that provides a rock solid foundation for any marriage.
Particularly given that temple marriage gives rise to "if you can't go to the Celestial Kingdom with me, why should I bother with our marriage?" I can see how temple marriage could help shore up some marriages with a sense of duty and obligation, but I've seen it result in inflexible marriages. Also if that sense of duty and obligation doesn't result in improvement of the relationship but simply a reluctance to divorce, sure the marriage may persist, but is that healthy?
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 5:02 pm
by Thoughtful
Temple marriages have lower divorce rates, but there's also a great deal of stigma in regard to divorce within the church.
Also the church marries us to roles, in which learning to navigate conflicts is beside the point. He presides, she hearkens, he works obsessively at work and at church while she is alone raising the children. There's not much time for a real relationship, and as long as you're praying, scriptures, tithing, church attendance...it will all week itself out in the eternities.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:40 pm
by wtfluff
Thoughtful wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 5:02 pm
Temple marriages have lower divorce rates, but there's also a great deal of stigma in regard to divorce within the church.
Are there real statistical studies out there anywhere that actually prove that temple marriages have lower divorce rates?
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:22 pm
by Thoughtful
wtfluff wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 7:40 pm
Thoughtful wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 5:02 pm
Temple marriages have lower divorce rates, but there's also a great deal of stigma in regard to divorce within the church.
Are there real statistical studies out there anywhere that actually prove that temple marriages have lower divorce rates?
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7001 ... puted.html
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:02 pm
by Give It Time
I don't have statistics and I don't know how to interpret it across the state, but when I divorced, the guy who taught the state mandated divorce class said that Utah's divorce rate is slightly above the national average, for both first and subsequent marriages.
Quite often, I see that when there is literally nothing one party will divorce over, the other party will take that as an opportunity to do whatever they want.
I've also known of a few marriages where one of the parties is literally considering homicide, because, ya know, divorce is wrong.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:10 am
by wtfluff
Thoughtful wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 8:22 pm
wtfluff wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 7:40 pm
Thoughtful wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 5:02 pm
Temple marriages have lower divorce rates, but there's also a great deal of stigma in regard to divorce within the church.
Are there real statistical studies out there anywhere that actually prove that temple marriages have lower divorce rates?
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7001 ... puted.html
My own personal confirmation bias is making me skeptical.
An article by the Deseret news makes me REALLY skeptical. Many of the links to the "studies" in that article are broken, and most all of them look like they were done by 'religious' institutions.
I want to see a real, non-biased study done about this, but I doubt it is even possible.
Religious folks are constantly touting how their religion makes marriages better, but if that's the case, why the statistics like G.I.T. stated? The divorce rate in UT should way down, but THOSE statistics don't show it...
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:07 am
by RubinHighlander
This reminds me of a post I had on the old NOM site about the number we always hear in church growing up that 50% of all civil marriages end in divorce. I had links to multiple studies showing that was never true and that the divorce rate in the US was on the decline over the past couple of decades. I don't remember exactly how high the rate got to, maybe 35%ish. This is part of the COBs tried and true scare tactics try and convince TBMs that temple marriage is so much better. I don't know what the temple divorce rate is vs. the civil one. I do see studies that show Christian religious types have a higher rate than Agnostics or Atheists. I think the current overall rate is around 25%.
From my own experience with my first failed marriage I can tell you that it was my fear of holding the eternal family together, my obligation, that drove me to forgive my XW for her desire to go out and sleep with other men. She had three different affairs that I know of, over the course of several years. I forgave her for all three of them, blamed myself for her actions. It was actually her that filed for divorce after I discovery of the third affair because she didn't want to face another church court. She never was exd, probation for the first affair, and disfellowshiped shipped for a year for the second one. They would have exd her for the third, but her lawyer sent the legal letter for name removal, ccing the local leaders.
I do blame the church for the indoctrination of damnation if I didn't do everything in my power to forgive my XW and keep that marriage together. So I put up with the abuse for years and just beat myself down into the fact it was a test and my obligation to forgive 70X7.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:37 pm
by redjay
Rubin - that's rough.
My gripe is petulant in comparison.
My parents live in another part of the country and we were visiting them last year and attended church with them. We includes my two older inactive children. My father gets up and as part of his testimony tells my children - yes directly addressed my children saying that marriage in the temple is the only way to happiness.
I was furious. I know of two women in that congregation who got married in the temple who later learned that their husbands were pedophiles. So no; getting married in the temple is no guarantee of anything.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:54 pm
by Give It Time
RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2017 11:07 am
This reminds me of a post I had on the old NOM site about the number we always hear in church growing up that 50% of all civil marriages end in divorce. I had links to multiple studies showing that was never true and that the divorce rate in the US was on the decline over the past couple of decades. I don't remember exactly how high the rate got to, maybe 35%ish. This is part of the COBs tried and true scare tactics try and convince TBMs that temple marriage is so much better. I don't know what the temple divorce rate is vs. the civil one. I do see studies that show Christian religious types have a higher rate than Agnostics or Atheists. I think the current overall rate is around 25%.
From my own experience with my first failed marriage I can tell you that it was my fear of holding the eternal family together, my obligation, that drove me to forgive my XW for her desire to go out and sleep with other men. She had three different affairs that I know of, over the course of several years. I forgave her for all three of them, blamed myself for her actions. It was actually her that filed for divorce after I discovery of the third affair because she didn't want to face another church court. She never was exd, probation for the first affair, and disfellowshiped shipped for a year for the second one. They would have exd her for the third, but her lawyer sent the legal letter for name removal, ccing the local leaders.
I do blame the church for the indoctrination of damnation if I didn't do everything in my power to forgive my XW and keep that marriage together. So I put up with the abuse for years and just beat myself down into the fact it was a test and my obligation to forgive 70X7.
This forgiveness doctrine...there are just no words for how wrong it is to consider it a panacea for all marital ills. My ex shook our younger child when he was an infant. No what I did? Nothing. To my shame, I did nothing. Because we were sealed in the temple and he must have been just stressed. Right? I forgave him. I stayed with him for fifteen more years. He continued similar behavior of varying degrees. I made him dinner. I did his laundry. I ran errands for him, cared for him when he was sick. Supported him in his calling. Moved four times. Payed off four houses. Estranged myself from my family for him. Had sex with him multiple times a week.
When it came time to divorce him, I was admonished to forgive him. I just looked at those people and asked them if they'd like me to teach a seminar or two on forgiveness.
A) if a person isn't a trained professional in things like abuse, molestation and rape (and affairs are a form of emotional abuse), or they haven't been through it themselves, they may mean well, but they need to just zip it.
B) Refer to my signature line.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:26 pm
by RubinHighlander
Give It Time wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2017 2:54 pm
B) Refer to my signature line.
Amen to that sister! Both DW and I have learned the art of the F*** word in it's many forms and it offers stress relief and proper communication in many situations! I do wish I could have used it earlier in my life to have reached escape velocity and gained more time in happiness than in misery, but at least my kids will have most of their lives to enjoy and explore outside of the Matrix.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:37 pm
by Give It Time
RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2017 3:26 pm
Give It Time wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2017 2:54 pm
B) Refer to my signature line.
Amen to that sister! Both DW and I have learned the art of the F*** word in it's many forms and it offers stress relief and proper communication in many situations! I do wish I could have used it earlier in my life to have reached escape velocity and gained more time in happiness than in misery, but at least my kids will have most of their lives to enjoy and explore outside of the Matrix.
Good for you!
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:02 am
by Newme
wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2017 10:10 am
My own personal confirmation bias is making me skeptical.
An article by the Deseret news makes me REALLY skeptical. Many of the links to the "studies" in that article are broken, and most all of them look like they were done by 'religious' institutions.
I want to see a real, non-biased study done about this, but I doubt it is even possible.
Religious folks are constantly touting how their religion makes marriages better, but if that's the case, why the statistics like G.I.T. stated? The divorce rate in UT should way down, but THOSE statistics don't show it...
Yesterday, we were playing an online trivia game and nobody guessed that Utah is 7th in the nation for divorces!
http://www.sltrib.com/blogs/utaheffect/ ... h-divorce-
I do believe that when one feels married to a cult-like church, as well as to a spouse, there are more strings that harder to cut. In some ways, like for the benefit of children, that's good. But to live authentically, it's not. It's fake. Marriage based on such a guilt trip can't thrive as potentially possible.
Marriage ideally, is based on self/other-awareness, a good friendship and trust, which inspires intimacy. Unfortunately, besides the many other obstacles, the church doesn't encourage that & sometimes actively gets in the way.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:05 am
by oliver_denom
I don't know about them being stronger. I saw a temple marriage fly apart because one spouse started drinking coffee and using Sunday afternoons for yard work. In contrast, our neighbors (never Mormon) separated for a couple of months after an affair, but through counseling got back together and worked things out.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:41 am
by Just This Guy
I have seen temple marriages divorced within 6 months. Other stay together but have years of struggles between the two of them. Pressure from the church to get married mixed with the guilt of anyone with hormones, often means that people rush into getting married before they really know the people they getting together with. To make it worse, young people don't even know the questions they need to ask the other person because you shouldn't talk about some topics.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:07 am
by Corsair
wtfluff wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 7:40 pm
Are there real statistical studies out there anywhere that actually prove that temple marriages have lower divorce rates?
I would love to see this also.
Several years ago I read an article by a devout Catholic man about his view of marriage equality. He pointed out that true
Catholic marriages are not supported by law because divorce is not allowed. Catholic marriages are accepted by the wider Christian culture but allowing divorce is apparently a bigger issue than I assumed for a devout Catholic. As a result, this author felt a bit put out with the marriage equality debate since the sanctity of his marriage would never be fully recognized either. I don't know if Catholics have a lower divorce rate as a result. Surely there is data about this somewhere.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:28 pm
by Give It Time
Just an anecdote about a Catholic marriage. My nephew married a Catholic. They had two kids and the marriage fell apart. They weren't allowed to divorce, because she's Catholic, so they're both living in sin with separate partners.
It's so many situations like these that have me saying of low divorce rates: quantity, not quality.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:50 pm
by Random
LostGirl wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 5:55 am
Our rs lesson was about temple marriage and how being married in the temple makes it stronger because you are ostensibly more likely to fight harder for a marriage for eternity.
Don't know about you but as an emerging apostate I find myself fighting harder for my marriage than ever before.
I get tired of the temple sealing being set up as some sort of universal panacea that provides a rock solid foundation for any marriage.
My first marriage was a temple marriage. It was a horrible place to be and I was suicidal for most of it. I stuck with it for 9 years, not because it was a temple marriage, but because I believed a marriage ought not to be given up on, which perception I did get from the Church.
Re: Temple marriages are stronger?
Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:53 pm
by Random
Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2017 9:02 pm
I've also known of a few marriages where one of the parties is literally considering homicide, because, ya know, divorce is wrong.
I know of marriages where I believe one partner developed cancer and died because dying was the only honorable way out (one of these was a good male friend).