Really struggling with marriage right now.

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Stig
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by Stig » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:35 pm

20/20hind wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:56 pm
Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:49 pm
20/20hind wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:56 pm
The more i look at my situtaion of a mixed faith marriage its like living with someone with an addiction. Its similar in the fact that it consumes who they are and what they do on a daily basis and try to get others involved. It makes them feel good. Its understandable why it consumes them and refuse to see alternate views because they have such a support group keeping them in it. Addiction to Mormonism is not viewed by mormons as a negative thing. Hell its encouraged.

For an exmormon that can be a challenge to live with on a daily basis. The more i want to be away from it the more she doubles down on the mormon stuff. Its not healthy emotionally at all.

I have tried to get her into rehab but she refuses to see she has a problem..jk on that one..
It can be really frustrating. I've been there and feel for you.
And it's tough to distinguish between the marriage & Mormonism - they're so intertwined.

In my situation, there are times when things are going well - but other times (like lately), when I make mental plans about separating or divorcing. Relationships are ups & downs by nature. Still, sometimes when we've been apart, I've also been happier - and can't help but wonder if it really would be better to split. No doubt, it would cause other new problems - but would it be better overall or not? Who knows.

Good points about it being an addiction - and how the church encourages it. If you said that to a TBM, they'd look at you like you were 1 card short of a full deck. But I think it might be a helpful way to look at it when things get a little crazy.
Its tough bro.. im ok if i shut my mouth and dont talk to my kids about who i am and what i believe. Im at my breaking point of just letting go and starting a new chapter in life..
+1
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Newme
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by Newme » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:02 am

20/20hind wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:56 pm
Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:49 pm
It can be really frustrating. I've been there and feel for you.
And it's tough to distinguish between the marriage & Mormonism - they're so intertwined.

In my situation, there are times when things are going well - but other times (like lately), when I make mental plans about separating or divorcing. Relationships are ups & downs by nature. Still, sometimes when we've been apart, I've also been happier - and can't help but wonder if it really would be better to split. No doubt, it would cause other new problems - but would it be better overall or not? Who knows.

Good points about it being an addiction - and how the church encourages it. If you said that to a TBM, they'd look at you like you were 1 card short of a full deck. But I think it might be a helpful way to look at it when things get a little crazy.
Its tough bro.. im ok if i shut my mouth and dont talk to my kids about who i am and what i believe. Im at my breaking point of just letting go and starting a new chapter in life..
I'm a sis, but you can call me bro. ;)

Keeping your mouth shut and not feeling like you can say what you think and feel isn't the most healthy, don't you think?
For a while I felt like that but gradually, it's getting better.
It still sometimes feels like navigating minefields and I think my DH & I are both not the happiest about not being on the same page.
But we're hanging in there for the kids mostly.

Maybe there's a middle way between extremes.

What helped most is telling him how I felt - how much it hurt me spiritually to not be able to express how I think & feel & to be put down.
I kind of pushed Article of Faith #11. I told him he was "killing me spiritually." That resonated with him and he began to be more flexible.
And I've tried to be supportive of him when he wants everyone to go to church.

Maybe try to find where you meet on common ground -like you both want your kids (if you have them) to be honest etc.
Sorry you're going through this - but I really hope you find a way to improve your situation and how you and she feel.
Even if you decide you want to split, I'd suggest you still try to work things out & assert yourself before you do - because if not, chances are that you'll find someone else who hands your ass on a platter when you disagree about something (just another issue).

20/20hind
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by 20/20hind » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:02 pm

Newme wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:02 am
20/20hind wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:56 pm
Newme wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:49 pm
It can be really frustrating. I've been there and feel for you.
And it's tough to distinguish between the marriage & Mormonism - they're so intertwined.

In my situation, there are times when things are going well - but other times (like lately), when I make mental plans about separating or divorcing. Relationships are ups & downs by nature. Still, sometimes when we've been apart, I've also been happier - and can't help but wonder if it really would be better to split. No doubt, it would cause other new problems - but would it be better overall or not? Who knows.

Good points about it being an addiction - and how the church encourages it. If you said that to a TBM, they'd look at you like you were 1 card short of a full deck. But I think it might be a helpful way to look at it when things get a little crazy.
Its tough bro.. im ok if i shut my mouth and dont talk to my kids about who i am and what i believe. Im at my breaking point of just letting go and starting a new chapter in life..
I'm a sis, but you can call me bro. ;)

Keeping your mouth shut and not feeling like you can say what you think and feel isn't the most healthy, don't you think?
For a while I felt like that but gradually, it's getting better.
It still sometimes feels like navigating minefields and I think my DH & I are both not the happiest about not being on the same page.
But we're hanging in there for the kids mostly.

Maybe there's a middle way between extremes.

What helped most is telling him how I felt - how much it hurt me spiritually to not be able to express how I think & feel & to be put down.
I kind of pushed Article of Faith #11. I told him he was "killing me spiritually." That resonated with him and he began to be more flexible.
And I've tried to be supportive of him when he wants everyone to go to church.

Maybe try to find where you meet on common ground -like you both want your kids (if you have them) to be honest etc.
Sorry you're going through this - but I really hope you find a way to improve your situation and how you and she feel.
Even if you decide you want to split, I'd suggest you still try to work things out & assert yourself before you do - because if not, chances are that you'll find someone else who hands your ass on a platter when you disagree about something (just another issue).
Sorry sis!!

That's some great advice. We have been in some real battles because of religious views. Especially when it comes to our kids. I just don't have it in me anymore to further engage with her about it. The problem I face is I'm just done dealing with it anymore. Honestly we are both pretty stubborn. We get along with most everything else in our marriage. She is tbm. I'm an apostate who would like to midigate the damage the church does to my kids. In her view, I am her enemy.. and she will do what ever to keep me from interfering with the kids indoctrination.. that is no way to live.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:20 pm

Ok fine I'll just say it...

Get divorced. You'll probably be happier in the long run. :lol:
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Anon70
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by Anon70 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:24 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:56 pm
It's also like living with a third grader when you've recently graduated from high school and are ready to move out to college and conquer the world.
I've been surprised by how close-minded my spouse is. I commented on a post recently where I shared that I thought he was more ok with my disaffection than he really is. So, I'm having to be much more careful about what I say about the church. It's frustrating because I feel like RR above--it's so obvious now, and so much of it is so crazy, how can he not see it!? but he's not there, he's still in TBM-land which stagnates growth/intellectual thought. IMO.

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Hermey
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by Hermey » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:12 pm

20/20hind wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:43 pm
Hey Hermey..

No i haven't communicated where im at with her because every time i try to talk to her about it she gets very defensive and starts lashing out at me regarding things she has issues with. So my life seriously fu$*ing sucks right now. If i just go along with what ever she wants to do about kids, or church im safe. Other wise i have my ass handed to me.

Ugh! Any possibility of both of you seeing a counselor? (preferably non-LDS, or at least not through LDS Family Services)

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Newme
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by Newme » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:40 pm

20/20hind wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:02 pm
Sorry sis!!

That's some great advice. We have been in some real battles because of religious views. Especially when it comes to our kids. I just don't have it in me anymore to further engage with her about it. The problem I face is I'm just done dealing with it anymore. Honestly we are both pretty stubborn. We get along with most everything else in our marriage. She is tbm. I'm an apostate who would like to midigate the damage the church does to my kids. In her view, I am her enemy.. and she will do what ever to keep me from interfering with the kids indoctrination.. that is no way to live.
Don't worry.

Thanks. Sounds like how I feel most of the time. Occasionally, when he brings something up and seems to be a bit more open, I'll find some enthusiasm to discuss things - but they usually end up in a disagreement. Maybe it's 2 steps forward 1 step back, or 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

I don't know how young your kids are, but I think it's important to realize that divorcing won't make all of the problems go away.
You'll still have to deal with her with joint custody or whatever.
Arguing with your wife might be uncomfortable, but maybe finding a way to share what you think and feel and listen to her - will help you both figure out some kind of compromise with which you both could agree.

Korihor
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by Korihor » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:32 pm

How are you doing 20/20?

Sorry you had a rough week. Try not to make any major decisions while you are emotionally charged - but remember those emotions when you can focus on analyzing the pros and cons as you make a decision.

I know it's hard - we're pulling for you.
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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alas
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by alas » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:36 pm

I think your wife is still hoping that this is just a "stage" you are going through and that if she keeps you involved at church, you will see the error of your ways. So, she is doing exactly what the church has taught her to do and doubling down on church stuff.

So, in my opinion, you need to disabuse her of this notion. Tell her that her doubling down on church stuff is backfiring on her---badly. Inform her that what the church teaches about apostates and how to fix them is dead wrong. It leads to divorce, not fixing the apostate, and if divorce is what she really wants, then keep it up. Remind her that after divorce you have the legal right to teach your children what ever you want. She will lose all power to tell you not to teach them the things you know. Most importantly tell her that your apostasy is permanent. Explain that it is like finding out about Santa. Once you know, you cannot go back to believing, no matter how much fun believing was. You can lie about it, if parents threaten no toys for those who don't believe, but you will never go back to believing. It is impossible.

Then I would suggest, you giver her time to think over whether or not she wants to be married to someone who does not believe. If she says she does, then you renegotiate your marriage.

I just kept thinking as I read through the thread, that if you don't have a serious talk with her, but you by yourself decide that you want out, that you will regret not giving the marriage every chance. She deserves a chance to know how bad things are and to decide if she wants to stop the behavior that is driving you away.

From my perspective, some ten years after telling DH that I just could no longer believe, you are in the worst stage of marriage chaos after disaffecting. My DH fully accepts my disaffection as permanent and now sees that I am so much happier than when I was trying to be Mormon. He LIKES it better now than when I was a miserable believer. Recently, I said something about going back active and his reaction was ....um...interesting. He made it very clear that he does not want me attempting the whole church bit. He understands enough about why I feel as I do, and he even agrees with some of it, but on balance, for him church works, but he understands that for me on balance, church did not work.

But it took him a few years before he could get past hoping I would return, then fighting about it all, to finally reach a point that he could entertain the idea that maybe my reasons were valid, and then to listen to my reasons.

Your analogy of an addiction is spot on. I think religion is just as much of an addiction as gambling or porn. It can be just as destructive to relationships. And whoever said that the church encourages this addiction is 100% correct. But if your wife was addicted to prescription pain killers, would you just decide to divorce, or would you giver her a chance to beat the addiction? Would you seek professional help before throwing in the towel? If she refused to see it as a problem, would you go get counseling yourself to learn how best to deal with her and her addiction? I would suggest you do some thinking on this addiction analogy, because I don't think it is an analogy, I think church really can be an addiction and needs to be treated as such.

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Hermey
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by Hermey » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:17 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:36 pm
I think your wife is still hoping that this is just a "stage" you are going through and that if she keeps you involved at church, you will see the error of your ways. So, she is doing exactly what the church has taught her to do and doubling down on church stuff.

So, in my opinion, you need to disabuse her of this notion. Tell her that her doubling down on church stuff is backfiring on her---badly. Inform her that what the church teaches about apostates and how to fix them is dead wrong. It leads to divorce, not fixing the apostate, and if divorce is what she really wants, then keep it up. Remind her that after divorce you have the legal right to teach your children what ever you want. She will lose all power to tell you not to teach them the things you know. Most importantly tell her that your apostasy is permanent. Explain that it is like finding out about Santa. Once you know, you cannot go back to believing, no matter how much fun believing was. You can lie about it, if parents threaten no toys for those who don't believe, but you will never go back to believing. It is impossible.

Then I would suggest, you giver her time to think over whether or not she wants to be married to someone who does not believe. If she says she does, then you renegotiate your marriage.

I just kept thinking as I read through the thread, that if you don't have a serious talk with her, but you by yourself decide that you want out, that you will regret not giving the marriage every chance. She deserves a chance to know how bad things are and to decide if she wants to stop the behavior that is driving you away.

From my perspective, some ten years after telling DH that I just could no longer believe, you are in the worst stage of marriage chaos after disaffecting. My DH fully accepts my disaffection as permanent and now sees that I am so much happier than when I was trying to be Mormon. He LIKES it better now than when I was a miserable believer. Recently, I said something about going back active and his reaction was ....um...interesting. He made it very clear that he does not want me attempting the whole church bit. He understands enough about why I feel as I do, and he even agrees with some of it, but on balance, for him church works, but he understands that for me on balance, church did not work.

But it took him a few years before he could get past hoping I would return, then fighting about it all, to finally reach a point that he could entertain the idea that maybe my reasons were valid, and then to listen to my reasons.

Your analogy of an addiction is spot on. I think religion is just as much of an addiction as gambling or porn. It can be just as destructive to relationships. And whoever said that the church encourages this addiction is 100% correct. But if your wife was addicted to prescription pain killers, would you just decide to divorce, or would you giver her a chance to beat the addiction? Would you seek professional help before throwing in the towel? If she refused to see it as a problem, would you go get counseling yourself to learn how best to deal with her and her addiction? I would suggest you do some thinking on this addiction analogy, because I don't think it is an analogy, I think church really can be an addiction and needs to be treated as such.
^^^^This. 1000x this.

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:13 am

alas wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:36 pm
I think your wife is still hoping that this is just a "stage" you are going through and that if she keeps you involved at church, you will see the error of your ways. So, she is doing exactly what the church has taught her to do and doubling down on church stuff.

So, in my opinion, you need to disabuse her of this notion. Tell her that her doubling down on church stuff is backfiring on her---badly. Inform her that what the church teaches about apostates and how to fix them is dead wrong. It leads to divorce, not fixing the apostate, and if divorce is what she really wants, then keep it up. Remind her that after divorce you have the legal right to teach your children what ever you want. She will lose all power to tell you not to teach them the things you know. Most importantly tell her that your apostasy is permanent. Explain that it is like finding out about Santa. Once you know, you cannot go back to believing, no matter how much fun believing was. You can lie about it, if parents threaten no toys for those who don't believe, but you will never go back to believing. It is impossible.

Then I would suggest, you giver her time to think over whether or not she wants to be married to someone who does not believe. If she says she does, then you renegotiate your marriage.

I just kept thinking as I read through the thread, that if you don't have a serious talk with her, but you by yourself decide that you want out, that you will regret not giving the marriage every chance. She deserves a chance to know how bad things are and to decide if she wants to stop the behavior that is driving you away.

From my perspective, some ten years after telling DH that I just could no longer believe, you are in the worst stage of marriage chaos after disaffecting. My DH fully accepts my disaffection as permanent and now sees that I am so much happier than when I was trying to be Mormon. He LIKES it better now than when I was a miserable believer. Recently, I said something about going back active and his reaction was ....um...interesting. He made it very clear that he does not want me attempting the whole church bit. He understands enough about why I feel as I do, and he even agrees with some of it, but on balance, for him church works, but he understands that for me on balance, church did not work.

But it took him a few years before he could get past hoping I would return, then fighting about it all, to finally reach a point that he could entertain the idea that maybe my reasons were valid, and then to listen to my reasons.

Your analogy of an addiction is spot on. I think religion is just as much of an addiction as gambling or porn. It can be just as destructive to relationships. And whoever said that the church encourages this addiction is 100% correct. But if your wife was addicted to prescription pain killers, would you just decide to divorce, or would you giver her a chance to beat the addiction? Would you seek professional help before throwing in the towel? If she refused to see it as a problem, would you go get counseling yourself to learn how best to deal with her and her addiction? I would suggest you do some thinking on this addiction analogy, because I don't think it is an analogy, I think church really can be an addiction and needs to be treated as such.
There is much wisdom in this.
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SeeNoEvil
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by SeeNoEvil » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:52 pm

Sorry you are going through this. Question: You said this is the happiest you have been in 6 years? Family is off having fun and you are home alone. When was the last time you and the Mrs. had a romantic get away? or date night? Just a thought.

Having been through divorce myself I have some pretty strong feelings on this. You've been given some great advice. But you and your DW need to get this all out in the open and discuss this. Does she have any clue this is how you feel? Marriage is worth fighting for if that is what you want. A good NON LDS counselor can help you put things into prospective. (I can't stress the NON LDS part enough). Are you two open for that? Don't quit until you've exhausted all your options. I certainly hope you two can work this out. I'm a girl so I'm sending hugs! {{{20/20}}}
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EternityIsNow
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by EternityIsNow » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:54 pm

How old are your children? If they are close to becoming teenagers, consider that many teens with mixed-faith parents eventually choose to ditch religion. Having a parent out of the church is there, visible to them all the time. Your presence could give them the emotional permission to find their way out eventually. So hanging on for a few years could pay off.

I was where you are for many years, but over time half of my children left the church, several were active teenagers in the youth programs one week, and literally out of the church the next week. By their own choice, I had said nothing to encourage leaving, and had always respected their right to choose Mormonism if they wanted. Their leaving has been a huge relief. My sanity comes in large part from interacting with my exMo children. I would not have it any other way and am glad I kept things together during the difficult years when I was the only non-believer. If I had left early, probably they would still be active.

Whatever has allowed you to be happier during their absence, you must realize that is your own reaction, in your own mind. Perhaps over time you can find a way to release the tension you feel with them, and learn to be relaxed and happier when they are around, there is always a way to reprogram our mind, even the subconscious reactions, if we work at it. I also went through a kind of reprogramming and detachment process, and that took time.

20/20hind
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by 20/20hind » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:19 pm

Quick update, things are going a lot better now.Thanks for all the good advice. I hadn't talked to my wife about all the Mormon stuff but she just kind of stopped doing it so much. It's really weird. Maybe she is here secretly.. haha I doubt it. Anyway it's going a lot better.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:39 pm

20/20hind wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:19 pm
Quick update, things are going a lot better now.Thanks for all the good advice. I hadn't talked to my wife about all the Mormon stuff but she just kind of stopped doing it so much. It's really weird. Maybe she is here secretly.. haha I doubt it. Anyway it's going a lot better.
Hi Honey!
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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Really struggling with marriage right now.

Post by MalcolmVillager » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:26 am

20/20hind wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:19 pm
Quick update, things are going a lot better now.Thanks for all the good advice. I hadn't talked to my wife about all the Mormon stuff but she just kind of stopped doing it so much. It's really weird. Maybe she is here secretly.. haha I doubt it. Anyway it's going a lot better.
Do you like Pina coladas?, getting caught in the rain? If you're not into polygamy, and you have have half a brain. . . If you like reading NOM at midnight, and dream of TBM hell escape. Your the DW that I dream of, . . . .

Haha, wouldn't that be great?!!

Give it time. I was in your shoes a few years ago. My TBM DW is coming around very slowly. It is a journey together.

Super glad to hear you are doing better!

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