What about the kids?

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Dmower
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What about the kids?

Post by Dmower » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:57 pm

I would love to hear from those of you who are in mixed faith relationships about how you make things work with your kids. Or how you wish they would work. Or possibly even what seemed like it would/should work but didn't. I have asked this question of others on the TBM side of the relationship, but I would love some input from those with a different point of view.
-A TBM DW

Korihor
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Re: What about the kids?

Post by Korihor » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:25 pm

Disclaimer - I am 36 yrs old and have kids of my own. We no longer attend on weekly basis and have made it known to our immediate family that we have strong reservations regarding the church doctrine and culture. We'll forever be Mormon, it's our people and tribe, but we can't conform to what it's become. Both my parents and DW's parent are TBM's.

Recently at a family gathering, my FIL asked my mother "So, what are we going to do about our apostate children?" He was referring to DW and me.

My mom responded, "Just love them."

While this doesn't give a lot of specific direction, this is the best advice I have. No matter what just love your kids. They will benefit more from that than any ideology.
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: What about the kids?

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:27 am

Korihor wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:25 pm
Recently at a family gathering, my FIL asked my mother "So, what are we going to do about our apostate children?" He was referring to DW and me.

My mom responded, "Just love them."

While this doesn't give a lot of specific direction, this is the best advice I have. No matter what just love your kids. They will benefit more from that than any ideology.
Can't second this enough. This is the key, for everything to do with parenting, relationships, etc. It's probably the only thing the wife and I have agreed on in raising our more than three kids, and I feel very fortunate that they all seem to be fairly well-adjusted individuals, with a couple of crazy parents. Both the wife and I come from extremely dysfunctional homes, and to have created something different has been wonderful for the both of us.

I feel very fortunate that my disaffection came when my kids were old enough to figure stuff out for themselves - frankly, they are all critical thinkers so while they are all active TBM's, their thought processes mirror mine, and are all fairly liberal members of the church. To me, if they are going to stay in, this is how I have envisioned it happening. They are the perfect blend of my wife's uber-TBMness in practice, yet very much are NOM in belief. I think it's great - but I'm sure Sis. M is not as enthralled by this state of affairs as I am. She doesn't like when we get together, and slam the more dogmatic belief systems of TBM's, which by extension, includes her. Yet they will also make fun of me, the heathen, so I think it works out well, and try to encourage her that this is so. So depending on the age of your children, I think it can be a lot harder to navigate a mixed-faith marriage when it comes to interviews, ordinances, theology, etc etc.

That being said, we've never been quite on the same page with parenting to begin with in many areas, including discipline, saying no/not saying no, and the like. Yet the kids don't seem affected by it, other than they are all fairly introverted, which is like the missus and I. So I wish I had more advice for you, but I would say very open communication would be key!
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Corsair
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Re: What about the kids?

Post by Corsair » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:07 am

I still attend church with my wife. This was a decision made so that she would not be a church widow who has to explain the absence of her apostate husband. Having a united front does make things a lot easier with children. I dont bad mouth the church in front or her or children. She does not push excessive orthodoxy at home.

I even maintain a current temple recommend. I don't pay tithing at all, but my bishop has not seemed to notice. Yes, I am clearly lying to him and I won't claim some moral standing about that. Instead, my wife simply does not want sit in the back of church and Relief Society having to explain why her husband is an apostate. She does not want to explain to her very believing parents the nuances of my beliefs and, for the most, she has not asked for details.

Like Mormorrisey, my kids were a bit older, but I did baptize two children as a complete unbeliever and certainly when I ordained my son to the priesthood, it's conferral might be debatable. But my wife still actually asks me for priesthood blessings and I give them to her despite my deep skepticism of their efficacy. If this was easy, then we wouldn't be discussing it. This is what works for us so far.

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Linked
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Re: What about the kids?

Post by Linked » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:18 am

DW and I have 2 little boys. We have not been able to have a constructive conversation about how to handle our belief differences in how we raise the kids. The closest to a constructive discussion came a few weeks ago when I asked what we are going to do when our oldest turns 8. My wife said she would like him to be baptized. I asked her who she thought should do it and we couldn't come up with a good answer. I'm out to half of the people in our lives, so me performing the ordinance would seem weird, but also I am my kids dad and do not want someone else to usurp my position in things spiritual.

There has been a slow, unspoken shift going on where we still attend all 3 hours most weeks, but we are more and more willing to skip for reasonable family time like camping trips or vacations. I have started skipping the last hour of church when I can't take the feeling of wasting my time anymore. The kids are expected to pray for meals, but we have never prayed as a family outside of that as I have been mentally out for most of my kid's lives.

I think about this question all the time. I don't know the answer. If my wife and I were on the same page spiritually I would want one thing, with our differences I am willing to compromise, but I'm not sure what the right compromise is. With TBM mormonism there can be no acceptable compromise, it is an all or nothing thing for the most part. So I can't really ask for half the Sundays for doing what I want because it would completely undermine DW's beliefs. But not asking for that means my beliefs aren't as important as hers which isn't fair either.

OP, what kind of answers did you get from the TBM side? And what are your answers personally?
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Red Ryder
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Re: What about the kids?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:06 pm

I'll answer with mixed emotions.

My kids were young when my faith transition started. I was quick to conclude that there was a lot of inherently good and wonderful characteristics in the church centered around family that I valued. Things like good clean living, family time, service, self reliance, good moral values, no drugs, chastity, etc. Having been born and raised in the church, I was taught to assume all of these things were exclusive to Mormonism. That the world was wicked and Mormons were the exclusive holder of all things righteous. I wanted my kids to continue in the church so that they would be good moral individuals and grow up to be happy productive members of society.

Over time as I opened my mind to other viewpoints I started to notice the world is beautiful and diverse. People are inherently good and wonderful both with and without religion. I also learned that what is good with Mormonism isn't unique and what is unique is not good. The family values I cherished most are not unique. While the unique things like polygamy, temple exclusivity, and fundamental teachings are not good.

Over time, I began to see obvious patterns emerge that were harmful to my kids. Little things like looking down on non-Mormons. Or comments made by other parents against my kids 3rd grade teacher (who was the best teacher he's ever had) just because they drink coffee. Than things like extreme modesty rhetoric against little girls wearing a sun dress with exposed shoulders. Or shorts 2 inches above the knees. Then as my kids got older I could see this type of "culture" seep into their behavior. Judgmental comments here and there by other kids when outward appearances didn't align with Mormon expectations. Friendship clicks. Many normal things for the most part but exacerbated by Mormonism.

I had very few significant complaints while my kids were young. Then as they grew up and turned 12, suddenly a whole village of people came forward feeling extreme pressure to raise them in the conformity of Mormonism. The YM/YW programs are the tentacles of Mormonism designed to funnel your kids into missions and temple weddings. That's ok until it's not ok. Worthiness interviews and crazy levels of fundamentalism make it not ok. First, there's something extremely unsettling about a grown man behind a closed door with your 12 year old daughter asking very detailed sexually based questions to ascertain their worthiness status. Do you know how many kids first learn about masturbation from their Bishops? Of course were led and taught to believe that it's all ok because they are the judge in Israel. But how many Bishops go beyond normal and are secretly getting off from asking detailed questions? We will never know but it does happen. Just google "mormon bishop arrested".

Then there's the leaders teaching your kids. They may be Mormons with same beliefs. Or they are extreme Mormons and start to meddle with extreme obedience. What if the young women's president is against the girls wearing a thong and she openly shames and guilts the girls by telling them they should prepare for a temple marriage and garments? What if she's anti sexual and teaches guilt and shame. The church teaches no, no, no, no then suddenly after the temple wedding it's ok? When do we develop a healthy sexuality?

To me, my issues with the church and my kids became obvious when I started to see the intangible harm and toxic damage that occurs when they become teenagers. Guilt and shame are the two most damaging things the church is excellent at providing to shape us through fear to be obedient. It's harmful and carries into adulthood. Other problems exist like stunted sexuality. For example couples can't sleep naked together because garments have to be worn day and night. Garments and obedience create a barrier between married couples.

Last I'll just say that too many bad patterns of deception, deceit, and cover up exist while even more patterns exist that demonstrate obedience to the brethren is more important than Jesus. Do I want to raise my kids in an organization that supports good family values, but is mentally harmful and toxic and stifles critical and independent thought? No, I want to raise my kids to do the right think because they determined it was the right thing. Not because they were indoctrinated to believe that they would lose eternal salvation if they didn't or were being disobedient to a silly set of rules.
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tryingtogetitright
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Re: What about the kids?

Post by tryingtogetitright » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:07 pm

My mom responded, "Just love them."
This was the jist of an Ensign article a year or so ago.

Dmower
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Re: What about the kids?

Post by Dmower » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:11 pm

Linked wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:18 am
OP, what kind of answers did you get from the TBM side? And what are your answers personally?
I'll start with the last part of that question, with how we've been trying to handle the situation.
Our kids are still pretty young. The oldest is 6 so he's starting to pick up more at church, but I feel like it's all pretty superficial still. Lessons for the little kids are typically things like "Heavenly Father Loves Me", or "I Can Pray to Heavenly Father", which (at least in my mind) are pretty non-problematic. There have been times when one of the kids will come home from church and say something like "did you know wine is bad for you?" I've tried to lead those discussions more along the lines of why certain things are unhealthy, instead of "because the prophet said so".
We've never been very good at FHE or family scripture study, so nothing much has changed with that. I know that this situation will get harder as they get older and more aware, so I'm always on the look out for good ways to handle it.

As far as what I've heard from other TBM's it's stuff like:
- alternating weekends (ex. church one week, fishing with dad the next)
- being mindful to teach that it's okay for people to choose their own beliefs and expect that the kids show respect and not try to argue, impose, or convert
- creating a list of values important to both spouses (hard work, honesty, integrity, serving others, etc) and teaching these without any faith-based rhetoric.
- talk to Primary teachers and discuss ways to make sure lessons are respectful towards the non-believing spouse and the family situation
- preview upcoming lessons online and decide together how to handle discussing that topic with the kids
-A TBM DW

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Linked
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Re: What about the kids?

Post by Linked » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:04 am

Dmower wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:11 pm
Linked wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:18 am
OP, what kind of answers did you get from the TBM side? And what are your answers personally?
I'll start with the last part of that question, with how we've been trying to handle the situation.
Our kids are still pretty young. The oldest is 6 so he's starting to pick up more at church, but I feel like it's all pretty superficial still. Lessons for the little kids are typically things like "Heavenly Father Loves Me", or "I Can Pray to Heavenly Father", which (at least in my mind) are pretty non-problematic. There have been times when one of the kids will come home from church and say something like "did you know wine is bad for you?" I've tried to lead those discussions more along the lines of why certain things are unhealthy, instead of "because the prophet said so".
We've never been very good at FHE or family scripture study, so nothing much has changed with that. I know that this situation will get harder as they get older and more aware, so I'm always on the look out for good ways to handle it.

As far as what I've heard from other TBM's it's stuff like:
- alternating weekends (ex. church one week, fishing with dad the next)
- being mindful to teach that it's okay for people to choose their own beliefs and expect that the kids show respect and not try to argue, impose, or convert
- creating a list of values important to both spouses (hard work, honesty, integrity, serving others, etc) and teaching these without any faith-based rhetoric.
- talk to Primary teachers and discuss ways to make sure lessons are respectful towards the non-believing spouse and the family situation
- preview upcoming lessons online and decide together how to handle discussing that topic with the kids
Sounds like we are in a similar position. My kids are still young enough that they would barely remember church if we stopped going, so I don't think any major or permanent things are going on. I teach the sunbeams and if all of church lessons and culture were based on that manual I would have a much easier time at church. But then we go to sharing time and they get reverence shoved down their throats and get the occasional modesty lesson which drive me crazy.

The stuff from other TBMs sounds way more accepting of a disaffected spouse than what I would expect.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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MerrieMiss
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Re: What about the kids?

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:08 am

I want my kids to be emotionally healthy. All of the intelligence, academics, Mormon activity, wealth, etc. won’t mean a whole lot if they aren’t emotionally healthy, so I try to parent using that as my long term goal.

I grew up in a dysfunctional family. I’m one of the oldest so I have had the benefit of watching my youngest siblings in their teenage years and grow as young adults. It feeds my anxiety that I am a terrible parent and that my kids will grow up to hate me and be screwed up – because my siblings, in or out of the church, all have issues. (I’m sure I do too, but I’m probably the most level-headed, introspective, and likely to admit I’m wrong.)

If there’s anything I could have benefitted from as a child it would have been to know that I was loved. To have time spent as a family or with a parent without anger, without criticism, without the burden of expectations. I wish I had been shown that I was at least as important as the church was, but the church always came first.

I don’t blame my parents too much. They grew up in abusive/dysfunctional homes and I think they truly believed that the church is what would somehow make them good parents and produce good kids. I really think they believed that. I believed it at one point. But it’s a lie.

The truth is, it isn’t the church that makes for well adjusted, good kids. All of the scripture study, seminary, family prayer, sexual shaming, modest skirts, and coffee abstention doesn’t make good people, it isn’t a substitute for love, and it doesn’t nurture emotional health. I think the people in the church who produce good, well-adjusted kids do so in spite of the church, not because of it. They are good, well-adjusted people who produce more of the same.

So I try to show physical love to my kids – hugs, kisses, cuddles, hair tousling, even a hand on shoulder. I try to spend time without being rushed. I don’t make fun of the things my kids do, even in a “good” way – I don’t want them to feel embarrassment from me. I try to be honest with them about my feelings and about theirs, and accept that we all have feelings and that it is okay, even good, to feel all different emotions. I try to be a good enough parent and accept them as good enough kids – we’re not striving for perfection and life isn’t a prescriptive battle to be won. It’s a journey to enjoy together.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: What about the kids?

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:10 am

To answer your question more pointedly about how I navigate raising the kids in a mixed faith home, I’m still trying to figure it out. My kids are still young.

Our eldest will be baptized soon. This is very hard on me, but I won’t object, I’ll just seethe inwardly the entire time and try not to roll my eyes at my in-laws.

We attend church together every week, and I’m active, have a TR, calling, I just don’t believe. Our family has become more relaxed about not going on weeks when there is Stake Conference, although we still keep the sabbath. So, we only skip Stake Conference if we are taking a day or weekend trip, not to stay home or go to Costco or something. This is a compromise.

My primary religious goal is to take the kids to other churches so they can see how others believe. We’re doing that for the first time this weekend. It’s a big pain for me, because I already do three hours of church I don’t want to attend, but I’m willing to do this for my kids. One of my parents joined the church as a teenager, so I always had extended family that was non-mormon and that gave me a larger worldview. I want my kids to have that too. The judgmental attitude exacerbated by Mormonism that Red Ryder mentions is something I do not like, I did not like even when I was TBM, and to me is one of the places where I will take a stand.

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