How Mormon can you be for your TBM spouse?

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: How Mormon can you be for your TBM spouse?

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:46 pm

I'm starting to feel like I can't put up the charade any longer. I talked with my wife about this and how we should start preparing for the inevitable baptism issue with my young kids in a few years. At a different point in transition I felt I couId eat my cake and have it too, and went through with baptizing and confirming my older child. I thought I would have the emotional energy to work the system into letting me be the normal LDS father for my younger kids too, but recently it just feels like it costs me too much integrity and emotional anxiety when it comes time to deal with leaders. This is the absolute worst part of it all.

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Enoch Witty
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Re: How Mormon can you be for your TBM spouse?

Post by Enoch Witty » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:41 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:46 pm
I'm starting to feel like I can't put up the charade any longer. I talked with my wife about this and how we should start preparing for the inevitable baptism issue with my young kids in a few years. At a different point in transition I felt I couId eat my cake and have it too, and went through with baptizing and confirming my older child. I thought I would have the emotional energy to work the system into letting me be the normal LDS father for my younger kids too, but recently it just feels like it costs me too much integrity and emotional anxiety when it comes time to deal with leaders. This is the absolute worst part of it all.
I'm stressing this too. Not so much because of the social or leadership ramifications, but I know my wife and both extended families are going to be gung ho about my boy being baptized in a few years, and I am really not down for it at all. I don't care too much about the reaction of extended family, but I really don't want this to be a major issue between my wife and me. Holy freaking crap, what I wouldn't give for her to just accept Occam's Razor when it comes to the things that bother her about the church.

My son is just being transitioned to primary, and I'm not stoked about that either. I'm really worried this is where they'll indoctrinate him against me. That said, he's autistic and still mostly non-verbal, so I have to admit that for now, I'm just thinking, "Well, he'll be a good disruption to keep the other kids from being indoctrinated." I am not a very good person. :lol:

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slavereeno
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Re: How Mormon can you be for your TBM spouse?

Post by slavereeno » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:08 pm

Enoch Witty wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:41 am
I know my wife and both extended families are going to be gung ho about my boy being baptized in a few years, and I am really not down for it at all.
you think that is bad, wait for them to be shoving him out on a mission. My heart is breaking every time I read my son's letters home. The mission is 24/7 pure indoctrination. I worry he will resent me, I worry that I cannot tell him the the truth, I worry that he is being irreversibly indoctrinated 24/7, I worry that he is already finding "proof" in the Mayan ruins of his mission, I worry that he now "knows" the church is true, I worry that he is being taught to distrust anything that goes counter to the church, I worry that I am a useless coward who cannot stand for what he believes... :(

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MerrieMiss
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Re: How Mormon can you be for your TBM spouse?

Post by MerrieMiss » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:19 pm

Enoch Witty wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:41 am
I'm stressing this too. Not so much because of the social or leadership ramifications, but I know my wife and both extended families are going to be gung ho about my boy being baptized in a few years, and I am really not down for it at all.
Yes. Only I am worried about extended family because we live so close. I'm worried my in-laws will start turning my kids against me and start pitying my family. I know my dad is hanging on to his TR just for his grandchildren's' ordinances. And it stresses me out thinking of how my in-laws superiority complex will take over if they know my parents have fallen away.

I can see how being a female in this instance relieves some pressure to keep up the charade, but there are some negatives that come with it too. I feel like I am giving my child up, I have no say, I can't even participate to NOM it up. And it's just the beginning. When he's 12, then he'll really and truly begin to break away as he's groomed for the good old boys club. Makes me sick inside.
Enoch Witty wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:41 am
I'm really worried this is where they'll indoctrinate him against me. That said, he's autistic and still mostly non-verbal, so I have to admit that for now, I'm just thinking, "Well, he'll be a good disruption to keep the other kids from being indoctrinated." I am not a very good person. :lol:
I was subbing in primary on Sunday (all of the teachers were out sick) and I remembered an interview with Kevin Rahm, I think it was, where he said he almost wished he raised his kids mormon so they had something to rebel against. I had to chuckle about it while watching the pure insanity of what is being taught in sharing time. I know I've said it before, I hate sharing time! But one of my kids hates his new primary class this year, his teachers bring him to us every week for third hour and I have to admit, I'm secretly pleased.
slavereeno wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:08 pm
you think that is bad, wait for them to be shoving him out on a mission. My heart is breaking every time I read my son's letters home...I worry that he now "knows" the church is true, I worry that he is being taught to distrust anything that goes counter to the church, I worry that I am a useless coward who cannot stand for what he believes... :(
I am so, so sorry.

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Enoch Witty
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Re: How Mormon can you be for your TBM spouse?

Post by Enoch Witty » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:23 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:19 pm
I was subbing in primary on Sunday (all of the teachers were out sick) and I remembered an interview with Kevin Rahm, I think it was, where he said he almost wished he raised his kids mormon so they had something to rebel against. I had to chuckle about it while watching the pure insanity of what is being taught in sharing time. I know I've said it before, I hate sharing time! But one of my kids hates his new primary class this year, his teachers bring him to us every week for third hour and I have to admit, I'm secretly pleased.
Oh yeah, that's great. I can't wait until the time that he starts wanting to not go to church. I never had anyone say, "Okay, you don't have to go." But he will.
slavereeno wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:08 pm
Enoch Witty wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:41 am
I know my wife and both extended families are going to be gung ho about my boy being baptized in a few years, and I am really not down for it at all.
you think that is bad, wait for them to be shoving him out on a mission. My heart is breaking every time I read my son's letters home. The mission is 24/7 pure indoctrination. I worry he will resent me, I worry that I cannot tell him the the truth, I worry that he is being irreversibly indoctrinated 24/7, I worry that he is already finding "proof" in the Mayan ruins of his mission, I worry that he now "knows" the church is true, I worry that he is being taught to distrust anything that goes counter to the church, I worry that I am a useless coward who cannot stand for what he believes... :(
Yeah, man, that totally sucks. I'm hoping we never get to that point. But it's definitely a long-term fear. Best wishes to you.

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notforprophet
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Re: How Mormon can you be for your TBM spouse?

Post by notforprophet » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:20 am

Dravin wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:26 pm
Honestly, I find the idea of attending to 'support' the spouse ridiculous. If you decided you wanted to be Catholic would you then expect her to go to mass with you?
I can't say I agree with this. I think that every relationship is different, and some spouses will really feel the need for support through attendance. This will be really common in TSCC since the stakes are so high. If a person wants to give their support to their spouse in this way I don't think that it's ridiculous.


I think that how Mormon you can be depends on what you want.
Vlad the Emailer wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:24 pm
All that to say I'm tired of being part of the problem. Actually the biggest part of the problem, because no level of support in any way can make up for being a nonbeliever.
There is, I assume, a level of "being Mormon" that would make you unhappy. But that unhappiness can be offset by the reward of making your wife happy, since that is what you want. I hate going to work, but it's worth it for the income.

What level of "being Mormon" can you tolerate? How much past that can you go? Does going that far past your threshold make your wife happier?

The ultimate question here may be: Are you capable of being Mormon enough for her? I guess this question leads to another, heavier question.
Vlad the Emailer wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:57 am
Yes Dravin, trying to take your approach would almost definitely land me in divorce court, but what is truly sad is that's probably what should have happened 5-10 years ago when this all started.
I hate to be the one to ask the other question: What will you be saying 5-10 years from now?

I would never presume to make suggestions in the direction of divorce. I'm not at all saying that that's the solution. Divorce is the antithesis of Mormon values. It's the ultimate "failure" in Mormon culture. But divorce is not a bad thing if it makes all parties happier in the long run. I really don't want be construed as recommending divorce. I'm simply commenting on your hindsight observation.
Vlad the Emailer wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:24 pm
I've been disaffected for so long I think I asked this question some years ago, but regardless, I still don't have my own answer.
Since you're still searching for an answer, here's an actionable suggestion. Feel free to ignore it: Slowly increase your level of "being mormon". Have explicit conversations with your wife about you trying to do this. Add participation, add prayers, add talks. Do this at a pace that you can tolerate. Tithing is a big one. Are you willing to add that to the list of things you do? Eventually, I think, you'll see results or start to see the ceiling of what you're willing to do.

Keep us updated!
Good luck with everything!
God is either all powerful or all good.
I have yet to hear an explanation on how he can be both.
- Lex Luthor

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notforprophet
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Re: How Mormon can you be for your TBM spouse?

Post by notforprophet » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:24 am

Okay, in the short time since I posted my reply I've been agonizing over what feelings I may have expressed about divorce. I know that my language did certainly seem to endorse it. I'm not for divorce. I do not ever want to consider that path for myself, and I'm not suggesting anyone else should. Yes, there are situations that some people absolutely need to get out of, but that's very different from the kinds of conversations that seem to happen here on NOM. I just want it to be super clear that "divorce is an easy option" is NOT my stance, despite how my above reply reads.
I apologize if I projected the wrong ideas.
God is either all powerful or all good.
I have yet to hear an explanation on how he can be both.
- Lex Luthor

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Vlad the Emailer
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Re: How Mormon can you be for your TBM spouse?

Post by Vlad the Emailer » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:40 pm

Thanks "notforprophet", I appreciate your reply, as I appreciate all that have replied. There's clearly a lot of agonizing going on out there about these issues.

I've actually been considering some of the steps mentioned in how much I can "Mormon up", and it creates quite an inner conflict. For instance on the subject of giving talks, I think "can I give a talk that is encouraging and positive, but totally non-religious? (I am now agnostic)" and I keep finding the answer that comes to mind is "sure, depending on the assigned topic obviously", but then the dilemma becomes whether or not I really want to do that. Yes, for DW's sake I could make myself available for such a talk, and possibly that is really the right answer, but I haven't walked up to ol' bish yet and told him to sign me up! Maybe it's just been so long since I asked this question.....I just don't care as much anymore.

Anyway, thanks again. I've definitely gained from all the responses.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest. - Anonymous

Say what you want about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying. - Kurt Vonnegut

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