Going Slow

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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achilles
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Going Slow

Post by achilles » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:35 pm

One of the most important principles of successful NOMdom is "going slow". Taking time to allow your new Faith Crisis/Faith Transition to play out can greatly improve our relationships with active members and TBMs, as well as helping us to remain steady while rebuilding a workable faith model/belief system.

Have you had any successful experiences you would like to share with the group (bear testimony of going slow!). Conversely, do any of you have advice to share on what not to do from your own experiences?
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

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trophywife26.2
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Re: Going Slow

Post by trophywife26.2 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:16 pm

After I found out what the church wasn't what I thought it was I was very scared. I did go slow. The only person I couldn't go slow with was my husband. He is my best friend whom I could not hide anything from and thankfully we were able to take the journey together. He was already agnostic, though afraid to tell me for a number of years. :cry: When I brought up my doubts he was kind and accepting. When I showed him frightening church history he looked at everything with an open mind. I WAS SO LUCKY!

As far as those I have gone slow with, what we did was immediately stop paying tithing as we no longer felt good about it. We continued paying fast offerings, attending church, and doing our callings. We were asked a lot "how ARE you?" I felt the implication was we had financial troubles because the tithing stopped so I would just say we are great and smile. Our TR were lapsed right before my faith crisis and we chose not to renew. We attended church for a year as non-believers. It was a very hard year with a lot of tears and biting my tongue to get through those meetings and careful planning to survive teaching youth Sunday school with authenticity. We were having a baby and I had decided that it would be the ideal time to lessen our attendance in church. I thought after we take the 8 weeks off from going to church when the baby was born we would start going back only once a month. Well after going back for the blessing of the baby it all was just too much to take. I decided I would take a year off of church for my mental health which quickly turned in to never going back. The anguish of attending with black and white believers once you have checked out of Mormonism can be excruciating. Once I stopped going and no longer believed it is hard to imagine ever going back. I wondered what people would think, but I realized it didn't matter. My mental health was more important than their opinion of me.

Before the baby was born I sent emails to the Bishop saying we wouldn't be available for some callings after the baby was born. He was good about it and probably figured he'd give us another calling after our hiatus. After about 3 months of non-attendance I emailed and told them I would no longer be able to serve on the social committee I was on. About 3 months later I emailed and told them I no longer wanted to be a visiting teacher. All the while we never sat down any leadership or explained why any of this was going on. They would check on us and we'd just assure them we were doing well. There were love-bombings and we tried to handle them with grace and kindness. After a year of no attendance passed the Bishop finally came over and asked why we weren't coming. DH was at the door and simply told him that things change. We never discussed doctrine. This was going slow for us.

Many (most) of our family members still have no idea what the situation is with us. They know that we don't ask them about church. They can probably see I don't wear garments. They probably noticed we change the topic or redirect conversations away from ourselves whenever church comes up. We have decided to simply live authentically and let the chips fall where they may, let conversations arise as they arise, and love people along the way.

At one point it caused me great anxiety to not be telling our friends and family exactly what was happening with us, but to be honest it's really none of their business for the most part.

I have told a few friends. I've joined some post Mormon groups and made some new friends. Everything has gone well for us so far with going slow. There were hard moments like seeing people from church and their eyes are filled with worry and pity or letters in the mail asking after you, but I grew more and more intellectually and spiritually and was able to see the world more clearly. I am still scared of how things will go with a few very devout family members, but I have made peace with much of this journey. When that happens (our so called apostasy comes to light) it's not my fault and it's not their fault. I can only hope we can put our relationship above the church despite the inevitable pain and disagreement. Time will tell.

Sometimes I wish I ripped off Mormonism like a band aid and told everyone my feelings as they happened in real time, but I cannot say I regret going slow. I am very happy with things as they stand today. Not sure if that helps anyone. Good luck to everyone who is just starting this hard journey.
Even if it's something disappointing, it's still better to know the truth. Because people can deal with disappointment. And once they've done that, they can feel that they have really grown. And that can be such a good feeling. -Fred Rogers

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chesteridaho
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Re: Going Slow

Post by chesteridaho » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:56 am

trophywife26.2 wrote:Many (most) of our family members still have no idea what the situation is with us. They know that we don't ask them about church. They can probably see I don't wear garments. They probably noticed we change the topic or redirect conversations away from ourselves whenever church comes up. We have decided to simply live authentically and let the chips fall where they may, let conversations arise as they arise, and love people along the way.
I have found that this has been the best approach with family as well. Initially, I wanted to make some big announcement, but over time I have realized that belief and faith is personal. I don't need to explain it to anyone. There are some ordinances coming for my sons that I won't be performing and they will need to ask someone to do those. I expect I'll need to share enough, so they understand why I am not performing the ordinances and that it's not due to a worthiness issue.

In terms of what not to do, don't go drink a beer for the first time without discussing WoW boundaries with your partner. I destroyed a lot of trust that day that still hasn't been restored. The new differences in the relationship need to be discussed and worked through. Doing stuff in secret is not a good idea.

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glass shelf
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Re: Going Slow

Post by glass shelf » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:30 am

I'm a bandaid ripper, and I don't regret it. I told my husband and my mother about it as it was happening IRL. They got to see me on the journey. My husband left with me. My mom then decided to leave the church a few months later after researching the things that I told her about. My dad left a few months after she told him.

I did not tell my dad about it until I was out, and that was after my mom talked to him. I don't regret that because he was serving as the bishop of his ward at the time, and it would have caused a lot of hurt for him in that role, and I wasn't really ready to handle how disappointed I knew he would be. I kind of lucked out, since he'd already gone through the process of my mom telling him she was done, and his response to me was that the love in our family was more important than the church even if he was still going to believe. About 4 months after that conversation, we were at a wine tasting together and all of us had resigned, so things change more than you can imagine sometimes. (Can I just say how weird it was that my dad was the person to invite me to a wine tasting. It was a totally surreal day, and we had a lot of fun on many levels.)

We also didn't tell my in-laws for a while because they aren't involved in our daily lives, and I followed some really good advice from Jeffret about being in a good place before telling people. They said a lot of hateful things when it happened, but I already knew their dire predictions weren't going to happen since it'd been many months of inactivity already. (We probably would have waited longer to tell them, but one of the big LDS milestones for a kid was coming up, and there's no way to not tell people sometimes without it being truly awkward.) Those intervening months gave me a chance to have strong boundaries which made dealing with the fallout a lot easier.

The people in our ward were mostly shocked as I went from being in the RSP one week to completely inactive the next. No fade out. Just done. Only a few friendships survived, but I'd only lived here a couple of years before we left.

Going slow can definitely be beneficial in some situations, but in mine, it would have just prolonged the agony. Also, I'm not sure my parents would have gone on the same journey if I'd just faded into inactivity and not talked to my mom along the process. Ultimately, I think you have to try to make the best judgments you can along the way realizing that you don't owe your story or journey to anyone. I had no idea my parents would leave the church, too, but I did know that they loved me, and that our relationship wasn't just based on the LDS church.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Going Slow

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:42 am

I'm the poster idiot for too slow. Twelve years is to slooooooooooooow.

My advice is to tell everyone you love first, followed by your Bishop (if needed), then your HT/VT's so you can get cookies for life. Then take 18 months to slowly process out. Honesty with your spouse is the best option.

My two problems/regrets were:
a) fear of divorce and not working through it together.
b) fear of being wrong.

Fearing divorce with 2 little kids kept me silenced for too long. The benefit was not getting divorced and being there for the kids growing up. But the silence on my part just made the elephant in the room really big.

I read stories like Glass Shelf's and see Kish going through this with Mrs. Kish in real time and I'm completely kicking myself for not roping Sister Ryder into this earlier. If anything it would have made it easier to gain acceptance.

I feared I was wrong and just having a trial of faith. I learned about the issues one at a time until slowly the evidence was too great. When The Late War analysis and comparison came out I realized that the BOM couldn't pass a high school plagiarism review. That was the final piece I needed to stop doubting my doubts.

So for anyone just now going through the early phases of a faith transition, know you're not alone. The issues are real, the emotional pain is real. You can make it though. Life exists outside of Mormonism. You just have to find it, live it, and hope to God your spouse comes with you.
Oh and be willing to find nice new comfy underwear. Who knows, you might just look and feel good in something black!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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glass shelf
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Re: Going Slow

Post by glass shelf » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:26 am

RR-In fairness, I'm not sure I would have been able to do it if it hadn't been for the essays. I had lots of things that I ignored for years, but those were like a giant slap in the face. It's hard to doubt yourself when your abuser tells you that they've lied to you.

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Snowdrop
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Re: Going Slow

Post by Snowdrop » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:41 pm

Red Ryder wrote:Fearing divorce with 2 little kids kept me silenced for too long. The benefit was not getting divorced and being there for the kids growing up. But the silence on my part just made the elephant in the room really big.
This is exactly where I am right now. Logically, I know I married a wonderful, sweet, empathetic soul who loves me dearly. But I know that his reality revolves around the church. I have discussed my doubts with him but have yet to work up the courage to tell him that I think it's a load of crap. Is there a less hurtful way to say that? And if things do go poorly, how will I make a living after having been a stay at home mom? My skills won't make a living wage unless I go back to school for a masters, which is a daunting prospect. Not allowing my fears of various possible outcomes to control relationships has been one of the most difficult parts of coming to terms with my loss of faith. Especially when it comes to having frank, open discourse on the topic with those closest to me. Do you discuss your doubts little by little until your spouse has no option but to understand that you've checked out? Dropping the complete loss of belief bomb would probably be quite damaging right now. What tactics are healthy to use in these situations?
I don't believe we were born to be sheep in a flock
To pantomime prayers with the hands of a clock
- Paul Simon

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glass shelf
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Re: Going Slow

Post by glass shelf » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:08 am

Snowdrop-
I wish I had some advice to give you. I'm in the middle of the "get a real education so I can get a real career" slog myself. I mean, I only have two bachelor's at this point, so I'm unemployable in my field without a Master's. I tried applying for a bunch of other jobs a couple of years ago, and nope. No one seemed interested in a person who'd been out of the workforce for a decade. It's really demoralizing to realize how much the church shaped my life on these types of things. All I can hope is that my kids learn from my current example and make better choices.

Being a SAHM really leaves women being trapped in many ways. (I know some people want to be SAHMs, and I'm not knocking it. I still am one except for working on my Master's.) I really didn't understand what that meant when I was in my mid-20s and decided to step out of the workforce.

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: Going Slow

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:17 am

I really hesitate to participate in these conversations because my situation was so . . . extreme . . . that it's unlikely to ever be anyone else's experience, and I don't want to scare anyone unnecessarily. And yet, if I had handled things differently I believe there's at least a chance my son wouldn't have died.

I was impulsive and angry and defiant when I realized that (as Red Ryder said) the LDS church wouldn't be able to pass a high school plagiarism test. I dropped that bomb on my husband. He was shocked but handled it pretty well (at least I thought so at the time) and then, I went and dropped it on my son. He was bright and questioning, and we were in the habit of discussing all kinds of things, but this cut right to the core of what our family was built around and he felt like his whole world was coming apart. He was already fragile and it really shook him up. The end of the story (for him) was that he was left without something he needed to handle the other challenges in his life. I really, royally f****d up. If I'd taken more time, if I'd broken it to him gradually or differently or . . . if, if, if.

Our situation was unique. What happened to us isn't likely (?) to happen to anyone else. But I've thought and thought about this in the last year and a half, and I really like -- sorry, can't remember if it's Hagoth or Corsair who said -- you don't really have to deconvert your kids. You just have to allow critical thinking and questioning, and matter-of-factly agree that some of the LDS church's teachings seem a little bizarre. It's the attitude that seems key to me, a combination of nonchalance and matter of factness. I think 9 times out of 10 that's going to undo the indoctrination -- or at least the part of it that keeps us doubting ourselves and pushing thoughts away as dangerous. The church does its most devastating damage to those who believe it the most.

One last thought -- I think some people believe in a version of mormonism that helps them. When I believed, I was very invested in the idea of grace (I loved the Stephen Robinson/Brad Wilcox writings emphasizing the importance of grace in LDS doctrine). Grace for me was, as the LDS bible dictionary defined it, an enabling power that helped me be better -- more patient, kinder, more hopeful and optimistic. A lot of my still-active friends also believe in these better aspects of the doctrine. I absolutely don't want to destroy that good in their lives, even if I've come to see a lot more toxicity in the rest of the doctrine.

Another thing I think Corsair has said that I find helpful -- he just regards mormonism as this quirky hobby that a lot of people in his life take very seriously, like astrology or UFOs. You don't have to believe but you also don't have to try to argue them out of it.

I feel deeply for everyone in this situation . . . these are just some thoughts and I realize there are no easy answers.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Going Slow

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:25 am

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:I really hesitate to participate in these conversations because my situation was so . . . extreme . . . that it's unlikely to ever be anyone else's experience, and I don't want to scare anyone unnecessarily. And yet, if I had handled things differently I believe there's at least a chance my son wouldn't have died.
That was a tough read, and I'm so sorry for you and your son.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Going Slow

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:39 am

As to my "going slow," I've been off and on railing against church related things for years. In fact, Sister M was really reticent when we were dating over 24 years ago, that she took her sweet time to say yes when I asked her to marry me. So it's not as if she was unaware of my concerns. I was really quiet in the Hinckley years, though, as I really had admiration for the eternal optimist, and I put a lot of historical items on my shelf, served as a bishop, and was quite content, even if the challenges of the church reared their ugly head from time to time.

But the shelf had a "shelf life," as the corporate nature of the church just really started to manifest itself more and more to me over the last five years or so. That Bloomberg article (2012, I think?) where I read about the church owning a mall and the church real estate empire really accelerated the process for me, and led me to my "apostasy" now. So I would say I have gone very slow, but in many ways most of what I really think is still largely hidden in order to maintain my relationships. The kids occasionally listen, and watching them interact with dignity and courage in the face of Mormon crazy has given me a lot of hope for their future well being; but Sister M's shelf is made of titanium and is in zero danger of crashing any time soon. So I've gone too fast for her, way too slow for me. I don't know if we will ultimately weather the storm (especially not as long as my "coming back" involves sincere repentence for what I've said against the brethren) but for now, like every married couple EVER, and like every father EVER, as a family we have our good days, and our bad days. It will just be an eternal source of sadness to me that this organization will continually be between my family and I, and there's nothing I can do about it. On my part, all I can do is show that the loving guy Sister M married, the dad who would do anything for my kids hasn't gone anywhere, regardless of the fact that I think church sucks and I don't really want to be there.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Going Slow

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:59 am

Great comments everyone. Good stuff.

I'll add to this:
Snowdrop wrote:Do you discuss your doubts little by little until your spouse has no option but to understand that you've checked out? Dropping the complete loss of belief bomb would probably be quite damaging right now. What tactics are healthy to use in these situations?
This was not my intended strategy but became the end result. The slow burn turned into an understanding that I was checked out but never manifested itself as a "faith crisis". Then one day while on a get away trip alone, we were driving and had a few hours of alone time in the car and she brought it all up. When I balked at discussing openly and honestly, she quickly replied "you don't believe, do you?" I froze and couldn't think of anything to say and that confirmed her question. Fast forward a few years and the lack of open and honest communication kept her always guessing if I would come around. Finally, last year we had one of those text book examples of how not to communicate with your spouse conversations. It started after 10pm when we were both tired and frustrated. It ended sometime after 2am with both of us emotionally exhausted and nothing left to give. That week was the lowest point in our marriage.

So what's the best strategy for you? Only you can figure that out.... with our help of course! Given your SAHM status and concern for all that, you probably don't want to walk into the bathroom after he just got home from work, when he's pooping, and loudly proclaim you no longer believe. Instead, leave the Ensign on the back of the toilet open to the seer stone article. Then when it's quiet and you both have time to talk, casually mention that you read the article and learned JS put his head in a hat and looked at the rock to translate. Ask him open ended questions about it such as "Did you know that?" "Does the prophet use that today?" Make him respond and prove the church claims are true. Then let it all marinate. A week or so later, bring up that you researched seer stones on LDS.org and found the gospel topic essay. Read it together. Let it marinate. Repeat the process and let it all marinate.

Of course I'm suggesting all of this as a way to gradually work you both into this together. Many of us here have regretted not getting the other spouse involved early in the process. You really have to control the anger and desire to back up the dump truck and unload. Doing this only leaves them buried in the pile of poo poo which leaves them only one option. To cover their eyes, ears, and mouth which is the natural reflex.

The last thing I'll say is "Take it Slow" means different things for everyone. Only you can determine the best timing. The best advice I've been told is... you can't unring the bell.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Corsair
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Re: Going Slow

Post by Corsair » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:45 am

Red Ryder wrote: The last thing I'll say is "Take it Slow" means different things for everyone. Only you can determine the best timing. The best advice I've been told is... you can't unring the bell.
This is really key. If there was a methodical way to process you sbelieving spouse out of the church then LDS inc. would have collapsed long ago. It is hard because it depends on a believer emotionally and intellectually opening themselves up to cognitively challenging information.

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Emower
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Re: Going Slow

Post by Emower » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:42 pm

Take it slow and be honest. Nobody likes to be blindsided with anything, especially not something as important as what this church makes itself out to be. Don't hit someone with a ton of bricks about how you don't believe, joe was a sex addict, and you are now going to burn your garments. It's so true that only you know the timing, but do not let anger influence any of your timing.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Going Slow

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:58 pm

Great advice all. It really is a personal journey and every couple is different. Happiness will not come through comparison with others. Just love people and feel it out.

Good luck, we are all still dealing with it in one way or another through all the many and complicated relationships we have!

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