Staying Married for the kids

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Newme
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Staying Married for the kids

Post by Newme » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:16 pm

I've often debated myself about staying married for the sake of our kids, or divorcing to be happier. First off, if there is abuse, affair or addiction, all bets are off. I'm leaning toward staying for kids... even when there is not much relating in a relationship.
  • I believe marriage is primarily for kids when they are involved.
    *My desires or marital change of heart do not come before my kids' needs.
    *I would be miserable having to move from dad's to mom's home back and forth - why would I do that to them?
    *My DH and I argue & don't have the best marriage, but my son said he'd rather us stay together than split even if maybe we'd be happier.
    *True that a less-than-ideal marriage is not the best example, but is divorce a better example?
    *My divorced friend warned me that when kids are involved, you never really divorce - you still have to deal with them with child-care and it often worse.
    *Studies show clearly that kids do better (in school and in life with more resources) with a mom and a dad.

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Jeffret
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Jeffret » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:38 pm

Newme wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:16 pm
*Studies show clearly that kids do better (in school and in life with more resources) with a mom and a dad.[/list]
I was with you fine until this one. The prior statements made good sense. But this one isn't well supported by the research and experience.

Why a Good Divorce is Better Than a Bad Marriage for Kids

5 Reasons Kids From Unhappy Homes Say It’s Better To Divorce Than Stay Married

And then there's the dig at gay parents, which really isn't supported by any reliable evidence.
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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alas
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by alas » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:17 pm

The studies that show that kids of divorced parents do not do as well all have one big flaw. They do not separate the fact that mom and dad fight before the divorce and after the divorce, from the fact that there is divorce. But it is kind of hard to find parents who love each other and do not fight and then divorce. So, the only other thing they can compare it to are patents who stay together and fight. And parents who stay together even though they fight are more damaging to their kids than parents who divorce.

I come from a family where my parents should have divorced but didn't.

My mom sounded sort of like you do, with the "I would be happier without him, but what is best for the kids?" She decided to stay, partly because she didn't feel she could support five kids by herself, and partly because she felt our dad was a good father and it would be best for us to have him in our lives. But it turned out that she just failed to recognize how abusive my dad was, and her sacrificing her own happiness for others just taught me that is what females do. That lesson was the biggest factor in why I never told about the sexual abuse.

So, staying in a bad marriage for the sake of the kids is often the worst thing you can do. The kids KNOW that there are problems, even if you never argue in front of them. And studies show that kids from good intact marriages do best, next is kids whose parents divorce, and worst is kids whose parents do not get along, but stay married "for the sake of the children."

So, try marriage counseling and only after that fails then decide if the marriage is bad or just less than wonderful. If it is less than wonderful, staying for the sake of the kids might be an option, because at least it keeps the kids out of poverty. But if the marriage is bad, then the kids are better off if the parents divorce.

Hard decision.

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Jeffret
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Jeffret » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:17 pm

There's another major flaw with many of the studies regarding post-divorce outcomes -- money. Or rather the lack thereof. It turns out to be a huge confounding variable. It turns out to be one of the biggest factors in outcomes. If a study ignores its impact, it can end up concluding just about anything the researcher set out to prove. (This is one of the major problems of the Regnerus study, but only one of many.)

What happens in many divorce cases is that the woman ends up with primary custody, because she has always been the primary caregiver. But she lacks the experience and training to go out and get a good-paying job since she has spent all of her time at home. In far too many cases, the father doesn't fulfill his child-support payments. As a result the family has insufficient income and the kids grow up in poverty or near-poverty. Certainly this isn't always the case -- many fathers fulfill their child-support obligations and many mothers have good jobs. But, statistically it's a significant factor for any study that doesn't control for it.

Divorce can be a really tough thing, but sometimes it is the right thing. We've got members of my extended family for which it absolutely was the right thing. Now perhaps the mom will make it and be there for the kids.

It's definitely not something to go into lightly. In general terms, I personally believe it's better to try and avoid it. But individual situations vary so much.

Newme, if this is a real concern and situation for you, you have my sympathy and concern. I hate to see anyone in situations where they need to consider it.

If it's more of an academic interest for you, then I would say the same to whoever needs to consider it: It's always a complicated issue, but personal situation and needs determine the outcome. Each person is best suited to make that assessment.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Red Ryder
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Red Ryder » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:27 am

Jeffret wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:17 pm
Newme, if this is a real concern and situation for you, you have my sympathy and concern. I hate to see anyone in situations where they need to consider it.

If it's more of an academic interest for you, then I would say the same to whoever needs to consider it: It's always a complicated issue, but personal situation and needs determine the outcome. Each person is best suited to make that assessment.
You have my sympathy too. I felt the same way as you for a long time and watched as my parents grew further apart under the same roof. I think they would have been much happier divorcing but they never did. Instead they just fought all the time which has turned into contradicting each other out of habit. Dad tries to tell a story and mom interrupts and says that's not what happened. It's beyond annoying to be around them and all of us kids have grown up and moved out for over 10 years now. So debatably, it might be ok to "stay for the kids", but what will happen when they grow up and become adults and see what a sham your marriage was?

My point of view has drastically changed. I say make the hard decisions sooner rather than later. Time is too valuable and you can't get 10 years of an unhappy marriage back. I'd rather have 10 years of a happy second marriage than 10 years for the kids. To be completely honest though, I probably wouldn't get married a second time. I would just be a serial dater and ride the chemical romance and honeymoon stage for 18 to 24 months or however long it lasts.
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Give It Time
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Give It Time » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:33 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:27 am
Jeffret wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:17 pm
Newme, if this is a real concern and situation for you, you have my sympathy and concern. I hate to see anyone in situations where they need to consider it.

If it's more of an academic interest for you, then I would say the same to whoever needs to consider it: It's always a complicated issue, but personal situation and needs determine the outcome. Each person is best suited to make that assessment.
You have my sympathy too. I felt the same way as you for a long time and watched as my parents grew further apart under the same roof. I think they would have been much happier divorcing but they never did. Instead they just fought all the time which has turned into contradicting each other out of habit. Dad tries to tell a story and mom interrupts and says that's not what happened. It's beyond annoying to be around them and all of us kids have grown up and moved out for over 10 years now. So debatably, it might be ok to "stay for the kids", but what will happen when they grow up and become adults and see what a sham your marriage was?

My point of view has drastically changed. I say make the hard decisions sooner rather than later. Time is too valuable and you can't get 10 years of an unhappy marriage back. I'd rather have 10 years of a happy second marriage than 10 years for the kids...
I'm definitely an outlier in the LDS world in that I believe marriage should not be a grind or a sham, that the covenant actually means something. I know people for whom marriage is precisely that grind and they seem to resent me. I feel kind of guilty, then I realize I actually chose the more difficult route. When we were divorcing, the bishop actually recommended our being separated, but living under the same roof. When I responded that when my husband starts seeing someone new and he brings her around for sleepovers, what are my sons supposed to think? The bishop just gave me an unvexed shrug. In fact, my ex and I would have divorced around this time, anyway. I was staying for the children and he was staying for the last of my inheritance.

It's difficult to go to church and see all the happy families walking by. It's difficult seeing child after child of my friends going on missions, getting married, having babies. It's difficult because that's the life I wanted. I certainly didn't set out to have two inactive sons and to be sitting in church getting pitying looks from people.

Also, just because you divorce doesn't mean you have to remarry or remarry right away. Personally, I think time should be taken to unpack that baggage. Bear in mind, as well, if you stay engaged with the church, if you divorce for any reason other than your husband losing his testimony, you will catch Hell and a whole lot of it.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Newme
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Newme » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:38 pm

Thanks for the comments.
Each situation is really unique. I remember sitting at the dinner table as a teen, and sensing so much contempt between my parents, I said, “Why don’t you guys just divorce?” My dad had already kind of moved to our little side cottage, & I hated how I felt when I was around both of them. But I think my husband and I are more polite, and my kids have never said anything like I did. In fact - the opposite- when we do argue, they express how they hope we don’t divorce.

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Give It Time
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Give It Time » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:40 pm

Newme wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:38 pm
Thanks for the comments.
Each situation is really unique. I remember sitting at the dinner table as a teen, and sensing so much contempt between my parents, I said, “Why don’t you guys just divorce?” My dad had already kind of moved to our little side cottage, & I hated how I felt when I was around both of them. But I think my husband and I are more polite, and my kids have never said anything like I did. In fact - the opposite- when we do argue, they express how they hope we don’t divorce.
See, both my sons wanted us to divorce and I think that says a lot about the atmosphere in the home.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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alas
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by alas » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:47 pm

Newme wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:38 pm
Thanks for the comments.
Each situation is really unique. I remember sitting at the dinner table as a teen, and sensing so much contempt between my parents, I said, “Why don’t you guys just divorce?” My dad had already kind of moved to our little side cottage, & I hated how I felt when I was around both of them. But I think my husband and I are more polite, and my kids have never said anything like I did. In fact - the opposite- when we do argue, they express how they hope we don’t divorce.
What is stressful to many kids is that they see the relationship is not good, only for them having both parents at home is what they know, it is the norm. They try to imagine life after their parents divorce and it terrifies them, so they really don't want their parents to divorce. But having that threat hanging over their heads for years is harder on them than just getting the divorce over and done with. I know that I saw my parents divorcing as worse than my being sexually abused constantly. Part of why I didn't tell, because I would rather be abused than have my parents divorce. But that was not what was best for me by any stretch of the imagination.

So, again, just the kids being afraid you might divorce is not proof that they are better off if you stay together. But my gut level reaction is for you to trust your kids to know what is best for them. Then weigh that against how unhappy you are. Only you know how unhappy you are.

The best thing is for the parents to get into marriage counseling and learn some better communication skills, and learn to understand each other and accept the differences as alright. The best outcome for the kids is for the parents to want to work out the problems enough to do something.

So, if I can push you that direction, I would. What do you have to lose? Even if you get counseling by yourself, it can help you clarify what you want, so even if your husband won't go with you, counseling can help.

It is hard to know the best thing to do. And nobody can tell you what is best for you because there are so many variables. You have to figure this out yourself, because every marriage is different.

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Jeffret
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Jeffret » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:05 pm

Very good comments, alas.

Perhaps one way of looking at it is whether the couple can function as a team in raising their children. That's not the sole consideration, certainly, but perhaps a useful one. If they can function as a team as parents and can get along together well enough to appreciate each other, then it can be a productive situation. If they can't, then it might be better to separate (divorce) to work together better. I've known some couples who have related that they make for an effective team raising their kids, as long as they don't live together, share the same roof. Of course, others make a great team living and loving together. If the arguments and issues do more to frustrate the teamwork, then staying together for the kids may be counter-productive.

That doesn't preclude the happiness consideration. That's an important one. Sometimes it's easier to see how your teamwork is than to clarify your happiness.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Red Ryder
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:24 am

Jeffret wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:05 pm
Perhaps one way of looking at it is whether the couple can function as a team in raising their children. That's not the sole consideration, certainly, but perhaps a useful one. If they can function as a team as parents and can get along together well enough to appreciate each other, then it can be a productive situation.
This was one of the solutions that helped us the most in our therapy sessions. We began to understand what parenting dynamics were facilitating our marriage issues and we were able to turn them upside down and create new routines. After a few weeks of new routines we quickly noticed how much better things were. Less frustration allowed for more love and affection and we started to spiral up.
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GoodBoy
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by GoodBoy » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:02 pm

My wife's father just died. He spent the last 30 years of his life being miserable because he was strapped to a lady that he was unhappy with. He ended up finding excuses for her to live out of state, ostensibly to help their son. But he was much happier with her out of the house. He should have divorced her a long time ago and found some happiness for himself, but his Mormon faith made him believe he would receive a greater reward for staying married and living miserable in this life.

Divorce studies are largely funded by religious organizations and therefore are invested in a particular outcome. And correlation does not prove causation. Disagreeable, emotionally unstable people who get divorced more often, unsurprisingly have children who are similar to themselves... disagreeable and emotionally unstable. The divorce may not have caused that, it was embedded in their genes.

We are genetically programmed to want others' marriages to stay intact because that results in a more stable society. However that may not be better for them. So society wants everyone to stay married and therefore there is a lot of pressure from others to continue relationships that are unhappy.

Bottom line is that I think you can get divorced without much damage to your children IF:
  • You can be civil with your ex-spouse and work together for the benefit of your children. Mostly this involves treating your ex with respect, especially in front of your children, even if you hate him/her. Your ex is your most important, and most invested partner in working for the benefit of your kids.
  • Both you and your ex remain involved in your children's lives and don't see it as a chance to run off to play and avoid responsibilities.
  • Separating your families doesn't result in large financial hardships. Mostly this involves being generous with your time and money to your children.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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GoodBoy
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by GoodBoy » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:09 pm

By the way, the church's teaching women not to work gives men much more power in relationships, especially when in comes to divorce. A working woman can walk out at any time if her husband is being a butt head. A stay-home mom, that quit college to put her husband through school has MUCH more risks than her husband in a divorce and must depend on her ex paying child support and/or alimony. These both usually go away after a while, and not all men are honorable and pay their obligations to their children or ex-wives.

Relationships are like most organizations; look at who controls the money and you see who has the real power. The church teaching women not to earn money takes power away from them.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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redjay
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by redjay » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:37 am

if there is no companionship and there is no hope of companionship it's time to move forward. If life isn't about preparing to meet your maker it better damn well be about loving and being loved in return - life really is too short.

That said if you can make it work and refind the woman you fell in love with and married, that's the best possible outcome, but if you can't...
At the halfway home. I'm a full-grown man. But I'm not afraid to cry.

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Stig
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Stig » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:33 am

GoodBoy wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:02 pm
My wife's father just died. He spent the last 30 years of his life being miserable because he was strapped to a lady that he was unhappy with. He ended up finding excuses for her to live out of state, ostensibly to help their son. But he was much happier with her out of the house. He should have divorced her a long time ago and found some happiness for himself, but his Mormon faith made him believe he would receive a greater reward for staying married and living miserable in this life.

Divorce studies are largely funded by religious organizations and therefore are invested in a particular outcome. And correlation does not prove causation. Disagreeable, emotionally unstable people who get divorced more often, unsurprisingly have children who are similar to themselves... disagreeable and emotionally unstable. The divorce may not have caused that, it was embedded in their genes.

We are genetically programmed to want others' marriages to stay intact because that results in a more stable society. However that may not be better for them. So society wants everyone to stay married and therefore there is a lot of pressure from others to continue relationships that are unhappy.

Bottom line is that I think you can get divorced without much damage to your children IF:
  • You can be civil with your ex-spouse and work together for the benefit of your children. Mostly this involves treating your ex with respect, especially in front of your children, even if you hate him/her. Your ex is your most important, and most invested partner in working for the benefit of your kids.
  • Both you and your ex remain involved in your children's lives and don't see it as a chance to run off to play and avoid responsibilities.
  • Separating your families doesn't result in large financial hardships. Mostly this involves being generous with your time and money to your children.
redjay wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:37 am
if there is no companionship and there is no hope of companionship it's time to move forward. If life isn't about preparing to meet your maker it better damn well be about loving and being loved in return - life really is too short.

That said if you can make it work and refind the woman you fell in love with and married, that's the best possible outcome, but if you can't...
These posts were both good reminders for me as I am in the early stages of a divorce and have been experiencing a HUGE amount of self-doubt and turmoil in the aftermath of my kids' struggles to deal with this new situation. I've spent many a moment thinking I should just suck it up, be miserable and lonely in my marriage, but be there every day for my kids as part of their household. The hopelessness of that solution is beyond compare, however.
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RubinHighlander
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:55 am

Give It Time wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:33 am
It's difficult to go to church and see all the happy families walking by. It's difficult seeing child after child of my friends going on missions, getting married, having babies. It's difficult because that's the life I wanted. I certainly didn't set out to have two inactive sons and to be sitting in church getting pitying looks from people.
This was a big one for me! I became a 3rd class saint when I was single. I hated going to church and getting a major guilt trip as I had failed to keep my family together. It was not for a lack of trying. My first wife had three affairs over several years I like I was taught I had to forgive 70x7. She actually was the one to file for divorce. Going to church in my old family ward, especially when I didn't have my kids, was the worst.

My parents always had issues; dad traveled a lot and when he was home they argued a lot, but it wasn't abusive. I was out of the house when they parted ways. I think my younger sibs still at home struggled with it. I honestly can't say if separation would have been better than staying together in this situation; at least there was no financial or lifestyle impact to the kids. In my divorce it was difficult financially to split income and households, it did tighten the belt quite a bit for a number of years, we we managed through it and I don't think it had much impact. There was a lot of drama and BS between the X and my new DW and me and that was no healthy for the kids. A lot of this friction was related to the Church, where I was still TBM and my X was out. By the time my youngest graduated HS I was out of the church and attended his graduation out of state and a post party at my Xs home. She was genuinely apologetic for all the crap she put me through those many years; it seems the dust finally had settled and I certainly bore no more ill feelings. Our adult kids are all out on their own now and seem to be doing just fine. I hope there's no lasting fall out from their upbringing that will bring a bunch of baggage into their future relationships.
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Corsair » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:48 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:33 am
It's difficult to go to church and see all the happy families walking by. It's difficult seeing child after child of my friends going on missions, getting married, having babies. It's difficult because that's the life I wanted. I certainly didn't set out to have two inactive sons and to be sitting in church getting pitying looks from people.
This has really hit my wife in the past few months. Our wonderful daughter married her girlfriend in a lovely ceremony in August. My wife is a faithful LDS believer and still attended with so much loving support for our daughter and our new daughter-in-law. But other friends in the ward have not similarly risen in support. One longtime friend politely, but firmly, turned down a wedding invitation. Another ward friend had been sharing the experence of her youngest child's mission call with everyone, but has passively ignored our daughter's wedding. My mother-in-law was especially adamant about not supporting her Lesbian granddaughter getting married.

I have long ago made some peace with the doctrine and culture of the church. I really don't care if they do things to annoy me because my focus and philosophy long ago was directed elsewhere. In the same way I don't care about policies in Jehovah's Witnesses or Evangelialism. But the sociality of the LDS church has largely failed to "mourn with those that mourn" in the case of my dear wife. It's really hard to see her passively lose friends over the past few months.

It really has hit my wife hard. I have a lot of respect for my wife as a result and have tried to be more charitable and stoic about the religious armistice we hold between each other.

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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by Emower » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:42 pm

Corsair wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:48 pm
It's really hard to see her passively lose friends over the past few months.

It really has hit my wife hard. I have a lot of respect for my wife as a result and have tried to be more charitable and stoic about the religious armistice we hold between each other.
This sucks. I'm sorry. Not much else to say I guess.

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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by crossmyheart » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:23 pm

I side with the cut your losses and leave crowd. Life is too short. Kids are resilient. Find a good therapist.

My FIL left my MIL the same month their youngest child turned 18. He did it so he wouldn't have to pay child support. But that divorce was really 20 years too late. Staying together so long really messed everyone up. Very dysfunctional relationships.

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aerin
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Re: Staying Married for the kids

Post by aerin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:56 am

Each marriage is different. Each person/family is different and will respond differently. Some couples will be able to co parent. Others will not. While one person can be committed to working together as co-parents, the other may not. So much anger and hurt are often hand in hand with divorce, the anger of the ending relationship.

It's said you never really know someone until you divorce them. I agree this is true in my experience.

With all of this said, I don't regret my divorce. It was the best decision for me and my kids.

Who can say? Sometimes this time of year can be difficult - separate holidays, etc. Kids are resilient, and life is short.

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