In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Thoughtful
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In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Thoughtful » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:37 pm

I'm posting here instead of FMH because I want male insights (female insights welcome too).

My spouseman is an ally. He does about 80% of his share of emotional labor. (Seems many men are doing 0-20% of their share). He advocates for women's voices and uses equal language in his GD lessons.

Meanwhile, my biggest frustration at church, the thing that is my #1 "I can't deal with this one more second" issue is the Patriarchy. It's woven into every fiber of the structure, history, and practice.

The temple baptism change It's the latest acid in the wound as its clear that it's purposeful. They thought about how to make it sound like the YW are important, but ultimately elevated the YM over their peers. I'm fairly furious about gender issues at church at any given moment.

Spouseman can see the issues. However, he isn't angry like I am. And further, I think he feels responsible for my feelings and so my anger toward the church and the Priesthood construct he interprets as directed at him: He is a good guy. He's better at this stuff than any man we know, so why am I not satisfied with our good life? Why does it matter if the church currently is clueless about equality, if HE is clued in?

We have some daughters. My marriage is good -- but will theirs be?

Besides, while I can progress and excel in any other area of my life, at church there's a boot on my neck in every interaction. To be acceptable I must be quiet, subservient, accommodating, feminine, appeasing, and serving (even, especially if I'm sick) and must never complain or expect anything of any man, just be grateful for crumbs that fall. It's degrading.

I see it as a separate issue from my marriage, but he identifies with Priesthood, feels it's real, and feels the church has been good for him (no doubt, it's set up to be great for him). So my anger with church feels like anger at him, to him.

Any insights on ways to resolve this squelch on effective communication of feelings? Have any of you navigated this?

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oliver_denom
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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by oliver_denom » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:33 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:37 pm
I see it as a separate issue from my marriage, but he identifies with Priesthood, feels it's real, and feels the church has been good for him (no doubt, it's set up to be great for him). So my anger with church feels like anger at him, to him.

Any insights on ways to resolve this squelch on effective communication of feelings? Have any of you navigated this?
There's no doubt that everything you've mentioned is worthy of anger, but there are many other things in the world that warrant that much anger and more, so why is the Mormon church front and center in your attention? It's a matter of distance. It's in your home, in your marriage, and in the raising of your children. If it were far away, like some oppressive regime in Iran, then it would be easier to manage, but not when it's right there in your face like glasses slowly slipping down your nose.

I've got two pieces of advice: boundaries and distance. That's how my wife and I have dealt with differing tolerances towards the church. If church has become intolerable, and it sounds like it has, then quit going. You don't have to ask permission or explain your reasons, all you have to do is less. Think of it this way. You can either set up some sort of confrontation over what your husband does and over what the church does, and do all in your power to make them change, or you can simply focus on what you're doing and what you can change. The reasoning goes as follows: I don't impose my will on others, and in return, I expect that they will not impose their will onto me. The person attempting to force a change of behavior onto others is always in the weaker position.

The best part of this seeming impassivity is that it's quite actively undermining every principle of authority that the church teaches, just by saying no. One of the most fascinating side effects from abstaining, is that freedom seems to be contagious. Once one person stands up and says no, then others feel more comfortable doing the same. If a child is given the option of going to church or staying home, a real option without pressure, then it doesn't matter if they stay or go, because they've been introduced to an actual choice and having choice is more liberating than having none. That in and of itself is subversive, because current LDS teaching is heavily focused on creating the illusion that there are no other options. Simply embodying choice and living according to your own set of standards is enough to completely undermine the entire program, and it doesn't require anyone else to do anything.
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Mad Jax
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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Mad Jax » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:46 pm

Emotional Labor?
Free will is a golden thread flowing through the matrix of fixed events.

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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:57 pm

When I was a TBM I feel I identify a lot with where your spouseman is, but I could never fully understand the pain it caused my DW. I often empathized with her on her complaints about the church's structure and recognized and acknowledged those situations where she was patronized and minimized by the local priesthood leadership. It caused me a lot of cogdis at times as a TBM; on the one hand I believed in God's way and the priesthood, but on the other it really did bother me the way they treated women. Ultimately, the only answer to this quandary was simply to get the hell out! We are so much happier now!

I wish I could give you a better answer as you try to navigate NOMdom and keep your family in harmony, but I really don't see how someone who recognizes the fundamental flaws in the LDS church can every find a harmonious existence with it and even a tolerable one is so difficult once you know how things are in the real world.
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Thoughtful
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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Thoughtful » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:39 pm

Mad Jax wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:46 pm
Emotional Labor?
Emotional labor is the invisible, unpaid work of organizing and maintaining a lifestyle and relationships. Typically women do the vast majority or all the emotional labor while men reap the benefits. Like remembering and executing birthdays, tracking and coordinating schedules, planning and packing for vacations, including arranging for someone to pick up the mail or water the lawn knowing what needs to be done and when -- and making sure it happens. Keeping track of when everyone needs haircuts, doctor, dentist, immunizations -- scheduling and arranging it to actually occur, tracking which medications cannot be taken with what and making sure spouse or child doesn't miss a dose, sitting on hold for 3 hours with the insurance company, remembering to buy toilet paper, dog food and toothpaste before it runs out. Recognizing birthdays and anniversaries for friends and relatives in meaningful ways. Making sure no one is offended. Figuring out how to manage kids sport schedules (rides, practices, hair for pictures, games, snacks). Knowing who needs clothes/ shoes, what size, what brands are social suicide, and making sure they have it before the tournament this weekend. Making Christmas happen with all the traditions and all the related planning and work. Remembering which level swimming lessons each child passed last year to sign up for next time. Knowing head lice is going around at school so getting up earlier to braid hair tightly (and learning how to braid). Lots of men are amenable to "helping" their wife or "babysitting" their children if asked, but do not notice or assume responsibility for noticing that things need to be done, until they are in a quandary with no clean socks. This puts the wife in the role of nagging the husband for help, or just doing it alone because she's the only one who has been trained to keep track.

Ex -- man "makes dinner" by grilling the meat. If the woman doesn't plan to start the potatoes 30 minutes before the meat hits the grill, make the salad, set the table or ask the kids to, notice that the ice trays are empty the night before and fill them, etc etc then dinner doesn't quite go off without a hitch. Whereas the man isn't sure why his wife isn't thrilled that he "made dinner. "

Emotional labor is a huge allotment of unrecognized but imperative tasks that the majority of men are unaware even exist. In the LDS church there's even more to do than in mainstream America (Julie Hanks did a blog about this. )

I recommend reading the essay, "I want a wife"

http://www.columbia.edu/~sss31/rainbow/wife.html

As well as this cartoon:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ores-comic

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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Thoughtful » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:42 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:57 pm
When I was a TBM I feel I identify a lot with where your spouseman is, but I could never fully understand the pain it caused my DW. I often empathized with her on her complaints about the church's structure and recognized and acknowledged those situations where she was patronized and minimized by the local priesthood leadership. It caused me a lot of cogdis at times as a TBM; on the one hand I believed in God's way and the priesthood, but on the other it really did bother me the way they treated women. Ultimately, the only answer to this quandary was simply to get the hell out! We are so much happier now!

I wish I could give you a better answer as you try to navigate NOMdom and keep your family in harmony, but I really don't see how someone who recognizes the fundamental flaws in the LDS church can every find a harmonious existence with it and even a tolerable one is so difficult once you know how things are in the real world.
Well, how did you get from point A to point B?

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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:10 pm

Getting from A to B...Every situation is different, mine was fortunate in that it didn't take more than a couple of years. Like most, I did my best to keep my shelf from falling down, worked my way through the Cogdis, but ultimately I came to the knowledge of the truth and mentally I was out. There were hints to DW along the way. There was the first revelation to her that I was having serious doubts I was trying to work through, that was painful enough for her and she didn't want to know the details. Later it would come up in conversation and little bits of information would trickle to her without getting into too much detail. What helped her the most was to see how much real pain it was causing me, but that I was very much committed to her enough to suck it up and stay active, whatever it would take to keep us together. She was empathetic at times, angry and sad at others, but she was also coming around because she had plenty of things on her own shelf, including the male dominating BS (probably her biggest one). Outside things that brought her to read the CES letter: policy change on the gays, the seer stone out of the closet and her oldest daughter revealing that she had doubts. After 15 minutes with the CES letter, that was it. Circumstantially, I had it pretty easy compared to most.

We tried to ease out way out but our zealous ward quickly got us on the projects list when we started missing more than two Sundays each month. It was getting too hard to put off attempted meetings with the bishop so I finally drafted the email and sent it off to the SP and BR and we were out. That's it in a nutshell version.

Things that helped me on the path out were seeing so many close friends leaving, for no other reason other than the didn't believe it anymore. They seemed happy and I went to lunch with some to hear their stories. If your DH has any peers who have left, that might help him see the light. Otherwise you'll just have to be patient and take advantage of opportunities to express your feelings about things that bother you, but in ways to don't attack his beliefs directly. Difficult path to navigate but there is lots of help here on NOM with any topic you can think of.
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Jeffret
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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Jeffret » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:43 pm

These are the tough parts of relationships and being involved in communities. There are no simple answers. These sorts of things take work.

The first thing that comes to my mind is that we need to recognize that cannot really make someone see things the way we do. My wife and I agree on lots of things, including the Church, but neither of us wholly understands how the other sees things. We can try to share how we think or feel. We can listen attentively and seek to understand each other. But ultimately there is some level of uncertainty in understanding how each other understands and feels.

The second thing that comes to mind is that things work better depending upon how we present our comments. If we say, "When you do X, it makes me angry" or "When the Church did Y, it really upset me", it comes across as attacking. It can lead to better communication if we say something more like, "When I heard today about the Church changing rules to let the young men have significant roles and limit the girls to domestic-type activities, I felt really disregarded, for myself and our daughters", then it switches the focus around. Part of it is taking ownership for our reactions and feelings, without trying to impose blame on others. Sometimes it is about putting the cause in more of a passive voice, not assigning the blame specifically, but using active voice to describe how one feels personally.

Thoughtful, from your description, I believe you have some very valid complaints, regarding the Church's behavior. It is certainly patriarchal. However, it sounds like you also recognize significant positive attributes in your partner and how he contributes to your relationship and family. I think it can be possible to craft your comments to help reduce his feeling that he is responsible for the Church's problems. To help clarify that you are describing how you feel, your concerns and needs, and not attacking him.

Most people really don't understand or recognize the patriarchal issues that surround them. This is particularly true of people who benefit from the arrangements. Or who are otherwise emotionally invested. People who grow up in the Church or are otherwise deeply converted develop a deep connection to it, a deep loyalty. They tend to see everything it does as righteous and necessary. It is a very core part of their identity and they feel attacked when it is criticized.

My wife and I had lots and lots of long conversations around these topics. Sometimes they directly touched the Church, its policies and actions. Sometimes, they were more general or touched on other aspects of society. Sometimes people can see it and discuss it much more clearly if it doesn't touch them so directly. What does he think of #MeToo or the Silence Breakers? Or many of the other things going on? Do you talk about how much he contributes to the family's emotional workload? Can you share with him how differently you feel in your family relationship vs. with church situations?

I did focus a number of our conversations around what I thought was important in raising our kids, our boys and girls, and how much we needed to try to give each one opportunities for growth according to their needs. With my wife, at least, we were both very focused on our family, our relationship, and our kids. We could talk about what we thought was important for them. Or how we thought some things at church was helpful or harmful for them.

Best of luck in figuring out how to work together to make things most productive and enjoyable for everyone!
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Mad Jax
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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Mad Jax » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:31 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:39 pm
Emotional labor is the invisible, unpaid work of organizing and maintaining a lifestyle and relationships.
I appreciate the definition and the time taken to explain it not only generally but to do so from your point of view. If you're wondering, I only cut the quote down for space purposes.

This did lead me to wonder though. Assuming the man is the breadwinner (which is still the vast majority), I have to ask if you don't see it as fair that the woman take up a larger share of the emotional labor. Obviously there is no possible way to flawlessly make such a division "fair" but do you see it as reasonable that the monetary provider have a reduced burden in that regard? I'm not talking about him/her coming home and watching the game and doing nothing else, of course. I suppose it might depend on the stress level of the job the person in question does, but before I elaborate more I'm curious to hear your perspective.
Free will is a golden thread flowing through the matrix of fixed events.

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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:34 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:39 pm
Mad Jax wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:46 pm
Emotional Labor?
Emotional labor is the invisible, unpaid work of organizing and maintaining a lifestyle and relationships. Typically women do the vast majority or all the emotional labor while men reap the benefits. Like remembering and executing birthdays, tracking and coordinating schedules, planning and packing for vacations, including arranging for someone to pick up the mail or water the lawn knowing what needs to be done and when -- and making sure it happens. Keeping track of when everyone needs haircuts, doctor, dentist, immunizations -- scheduling and arranging it to actually occur, tracking which medications cannot be taken with what and making sure spouse or child doesn't miss a dose, sitting on hold for 3 hours with the insurance company, remembering to buy toilet paper, dog food and toothpaste before it runs out. Recognizing birthdays and anniversaries for friends and relatives in meaningful ways. Making sure no one is offended. Figuring out how to manage kids sport schedules (rides, practices, hair for pictures, games, snacks). Knowing who needs clothes/ shoes, what size, what brands are social suicide, and making sure they have it before the tournament this weekend. Making Christmas happen with all the traditions and all the related planning and work. Remembering which level swimming lessons each child passed last year to sign up for next time. Knowing head lice is going around at school so getting up earlier to braid hair tightly (and learning how to braid). Lots of men are amenable to "helping" their wife or "babysitting" their children if asked, but do not notice or assume responsibility for noticing that things need to be done, until they are in a quandary with no clean socks. This puts the wife in the role of nagging the husband for help, or just doing it alone because she's the only one who has been trained to keep track.

Ex -- man "makes dinner" by grilling the meat. If the woman doesn't plan to start the potatoes 30 minutes before the meat hits the grill, make the salad, set the table or ask the kids to, notice that the ice trays are empty the night before and fill them, etc etc then dinner doesn't quite go off without a hitch. Whereas the man isn't sure why his wife isn't thrilled that he "made dinner. "

Emotional labor is a huge allotment of unrecognized but imperative tasks that the majority of men are unaware even exist. In the LDS church there's even more to do than in mainstream America (Julie Hanks did a blog about this. )

I recommend reading the essay, "I want a wife"

http://www.columbia.edu/~sss31/rainbow/wife.html

As well as this cartoon:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ores-comic
This was very educational for me. I am terrible at recognizing emotional labor.

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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Jeffret » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:07 pm

I'm going to behave as if someone cares about my thoughts on the Emotional Labor topic, even though I wasn't actually asked about it. Mostly because I was already thinking about expounding on the topic. I'd also like to see Thoughtful's response.

Women do a disproportionate amount of the household work, on average. When a couple structures their shared lives so that one is the breadwinner and the other is stay-at-home, or works part-time or something along those lines, it makes sense that the responsibilities be split differently. It is much more common for the woman to be the stay-at-home partner for a variety of reasons. In these cases, we would expect the woman do to a lot more of the household work and the family management. But, let's disregard that situation for a moment and consider the relationships where the man and the woman both work full-time with roughly equivalent workloads. Even in those situations, study after study have shown that women still do a significantly disproportionate amount of the household work and the family management. Some people have called it the "second shift", where men get to relax and women have to work a second shift once they get home. To a significant degree, in entering the workforce women have brought more work upon themselves, because on average, men haven't risen to the challenge of carrying their fair share of work in the home. Now there are advantages and needs for women to work, but the disparity exists.

Each couple has to negotiate and navigate how they divide the tasks. What works for one couple won't necessarily work for another. It makes sense for a stay-at-home partner to contribute more to home and family management. In my situation, my wife and I adhere to fairly traditional roles in many ways. I work full-time whereas she works part-time and was stay-at-home for many years. She manages the cooking and much of the household work. I try to do my share. I maintain our cars and do a significant amount of the yard work. We homeschool and we've divided the work there so I do more of the work for the high school kids and helping them get ready for college. But, still a disproportionate amount of that Emotional Labor falls to her. She's the one that really has to keep on top of everything. I can leave work at work, but she can't ever leave her work of managing the house and family. We've done a lot to divide up the jobs and responsibilities but there are parts that weigh more heavily on her than on myself. These are based upon patterns, roles, and expectations taught to us by society and the examples we've experienced. It's not easy to change and create new patterns.

Thoughtful originally said, "My spouseman is an ally. He does about 80% of his share of emotional labor." I'd say that if her spouseman is doing that much, that's a pretty positive situation really. It demonstrates he's aware of the needs and engages to meet some of them. It sounds to me like Thoughtful feels he could do more, there are areas where he could improve, but he's doing pretty well. I think she phrased it well. She didn't say that his share was necessarily 50% of the total, an even split, but rather that he does about 80% of his share, whatever she feels that to be. As she notes, that's not bad but there is room for improvement.

I also think this is a very significant comment, "He advocates for women's voices and uses equal language in his GD lessons." This is fairly unusual in Mormon circles, particularly in official positions on Sunday. It's tough for anyone to be perfect at that sort of thing but even putting forth a good, solid effort kind of stands out in Mormonism.
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Thoughtful » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:19 am

Mad Jax wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:31 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:39 pm
Emotional labor is the invisible, unpaid work of organizing and maintaining a lifestyle and relationships.
I appreciate the definition and the time taken to explain it not only generally but to do so from your point of view. If you're wondering, I only cut the quote down for space purposes.

This did lead me to wonder though. Assuming the man is the breadwinner (which is still the vast majority), I have to ask if you don't see it as fair that the woman take up a larger share of the emotional labor. Obviously there is no possible way to flawlessly make such a division "fair" but do you see it as reasonable that the monetary provider have a reduced burden in that regard? I'm not talking about him/her coming home and watching the game and doing nothing else, of course. I suppose it might depend on the stress level of the job the person in question does, but before I elaborate more I'm curious to hear your perspective.
The statistic I've seen on actual labor -- housework -- is that when both partners work full time, the female spouse is doing as much as 80% of the actual labor.

Emotional labor being unseen, Id venture to guess is much bigger discrepancy, given that men rarely know it exists, or think their wife "likes doing it". Additionally, the social repercussions of not doing it fall to women, even when it's something like forgetting his mother's birthday. She is the one that gets blamed. So if he's working outside home, she's raising the kids, cleaning the house, and doing all the mental load? I don't think it's really fair at all. Especially given that even when women want to stay home, the reality is their social needs are generally not met, their retirement funding suffers, and a variety of other real tangible sacrifices that their spouse benefits from at their expense. So any talk about equality should also include a discussion of how the money earning parent absorbs their "share" of responsibility for resolving those discrepancies.

Outside my marriage, I do not see men doing EL much at all, and a lot of the benevolent sexism at church is actually men acknowledging their wife is "boss of the house" or in some manner running the show and he has no idea how she's doing it.... meaning she's doing the emotional labor and he is just happy to be there, poor dear. Meanwhile he has all the authority as some kind of consolation prize. *eyeroll* They are "equal partners" in that they share responsibility that actually falls squarely on her shoulders, meanwhile he "presides" aka is the final boss.

So back to stay at home parents -- consider there are 3 jobs of running a household, that are each roughly full time, 40 hours or more per week. 1- bringing home the bacon, assuming you can do it on one income 2- Child rearing 3- home maintenance & meals. There's emotional labor involved in all these, and often women pick up the emotional labor related to their spouses work also (organizing laundry and clothing shopping, entertaining,
Etc) . What tends to happen with a SAHM and physical labor is that she does all of 2&3, except a few "male" tasks like oil changes, buying tires, hanging Christmas lights, and winterizing the Sprinklers, mowing the lawn. Sometimes the man "helps out" by having a "job" like taking out the garbage. The key here is that the division for the man is little emotional labor, Christmas lights go up once a year. Lawn gets mowed Saturday morning. Garbage goes out when someone has magically removed the bag, tied it up neatly, replaced the old bag and set the bag by the garage. The man's "share" of housework are discrete tasks that 1- clearly need doing by some indicator picking up most of the planning/ managing aspects (light in the dashboard, long grass, weaver forecast) and 2- when they are done, stay done for awhile. So the woman is managing (carrying responsibility for) basically the entire household which is a second full time job, on top of child care, including EL and all of the never ending tasks that are undone before you're done -- but daddy is in fact watching the game because he went to work today and shoveled the snow yesterday.

So with that in mind, having been a SAHM, a WAHM, and a work outside the home mom, I don't believe that SAHM is an excuse to saddle that parent with all the emotional labor.

What is fair probably depends on the family circumstances. In my case, spouseman and I both work full time & teach college on the side, he sees clients outside of work, and I train for races. Our youngest is in school full time. He makes more money (having been in the paid workforce longer -- again a product of not *having* to consider child rearing in the course of his career, despite being a parent).

One method I've seen is listing everything physical labor or emotional labor and then initialing the list when you do something on it, then see how it's shaking out. Or talking about who is doing what and who actually *likes* doing what. For example, I love washing and hanging clothes to dry, but resent folding and putting away. I like sending Christmas cards but feel my spouseman should plan and buy gifts for his mother -- and that the gifts he chooses should be reasonably budgeted for. I love mowing the lawn, but hate meal planning. Find some method of evaluating who is doing what, and who enjoys what, or who hates what more. And then divvy up not only who is responsible for doing it, but also the emotional load and accountability related to getting it done (remembering, planning, executing).

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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Reuben » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:50 am

Jeffret wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:43 pm
Most people really don't understand or recognize the patriarchal issues that surround them. This is particularly true of people who benefit from the arrangements. Or who are otherwise emotionally invested. People who grow up in the Church or are otherwise deeply converted develop a deep connection to it, a deep loyalty. They tend to see everything it does as righteous and necessary. It is a very core part of their identity and they feel attacked when it is criticized.
I think Jeffret nails it here.

I'd like to add that even people who see the patriarchal issues and work to mitigate harm can be emotionally invested and have their identities wrapped up in the LDS church. Then, when you bring up more problems, they might not only feel attacked but guilty and unfairly blamed. The response tries to ease pressure: "I'm already trying to do something about it. I've bent father than I ever thought I'd have to just to acknowledge these kinds of problems in the first place. What more do you want from me?"

I think this is where my wife is at on some things. Now that I've thought it through, I'm going to thank her long before I bring up anything else negative about the church.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Thoughtful » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:23 am

Reuben wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:50 am
Jeffret wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:43 pm
Most people really don't understand or recognize the patriarchal issues that surround them. This is particularly true of people who benefit from the arrangements. Or who are otherwise emotionally invested. People who grow up in the Church or are otherwise deeply converted develop a deep connection to it, a deep loyalty. They tend to see everything it does as righteous and necessary. It is a very core part of their identity and they feel attacked when it is criticized.
I think Jeffret nails it here.

I'd like to add that even people who see the patriarchal issues and work to mitigate harm can be emotionally invested and have their identities wrapped up in the LDS church. Then, when you bring up more problems, they might not only feel attacked but guilty and unfairly blamed. The response tries to ease pressure: "I'm already trying to do something about it. I've bent father than I ever thought I'd have to just to acknowledge these kinds of problems in the first place. What more do you want from me?"

I think this is where my wife is at on some things. Now that I've thought it through, I'm going to thank her long before I bring up anything else negative about the church.
Yes, this is really part of it. He is trying to fix it, but as we know, it's a trickle down system. I think he's been well trained to be a fixer -- as the responsible presiding authority, he has to keep his family happy. Understanding that the church is ultimately out of his control is hard. But again, he is not the problem I'm having, the church is. I think he sees himself as the church or the church as a reflection of him when I'm upset.

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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by alas » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:31 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:23 am
Reuben wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:50 am
Jeffret wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:43 pm
Most people really don't understand or recognize the patriarchal issues that surround them. This is particularly true of people who benefit from the arrangements. Or who are otherwise emotionally invested. People who grow up in the Church or are otherwise deeply converted develop a deep connection to it, a deep loyalty. They tend to see everything it does as righteous and necessary. It is a very core part of their identity and they feel attacked when it is criticized.
I think Jeffret nails it here.

I'd like to add that even people who see the patriarchal issues and work to mitigate harm can be emotionally invested and have their identities wrapped up in the LDS church. Then, when you bring up more problems, they might not only feel attacked but guilty and unfairly blamed. The response tries to ease pressure: "I'm already trying to do something about it. I've bent father than I ever thought I'd have to just to acknowledge these kinds of problems in the first place. What more do you want from me?"

I think this is where my wife is at on some things. Now that I've thought it through, I'm going to thank her long before I bring up anything else negative about the church.
Yes, this is really part of it. He is trying to fix it, but as we know, it's a trickle down system. I think he's been well trained to be a fixer -- as the responsible presiding authority, he has to keep his family happy. Understanding that the church is ultimately out of his control is hard. But again, he is not the problem I'm having, the church is. I think he sees himself as the church or the church as a reflection of him when I'm upset.
My husband reacts as if he s personally being attacked if I criticize the church. It is so much a part of his identity that he can't fully separate it from himself. We have talked about this issue, and in a way I understand it because what a person deeply believes is who they are, so if they believe the church is close to perfect in its truth and run personally by God, then my criticizing it is criticizing him, because he believes.

Thoughtful
Posts: 1162
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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by Thoughtful » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:52 am

alas wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:31 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:23 am
Reuben wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:50 am


I think Jeffret nails it here.

I'd like to add that even people who see the patriarchal issues and work to mitigate harm can be emotionally invested and have their identities wrapped up in the LDS church. Then, when you bring up more problems, they might not only feel attacked but guilty and unfairly blamed. The response tries to ease pressure: "I'm already trying to do something about it. I've bent father than I ever thought I'd have to just to acknowledge these kinds of problems in the first place. What more do you want from me?"

I think this is where my wife is at on some things. Now that I've thought it through, I'm going to thank her long before I bring up anything else negative about the church.
Yes, this is really part of it. He is trying to fix it, but as we know, it's a trickle down system. I think he's been well trained to be a fixer -- as the responsible presiding authority, he has to keep his family happy. Understanding that the church is ultimately out of his control is hard. But again, he is not the problem I'm having, the church is. I think he sees himself as the church or the church as a reflection of him when I'm upset.
My husband reacts as if he s personally being attacked if I criticize the church. It is so much a part of his identity that he can't fully separate it from himself. We have talked about this issue, and in a way I understand it because what a person deeply believes is who they are, so if they believe the church is close to perfect in its truth and run personally by God, then my criticizing it is criticizing him, because he believes.
So true. I see this as well. I feel that it's something I can take his perspective on -- as a man in the church it's a totally different experience, being told from 12 on about your special abilities, and your responsibilities to preside/ provide/ protect -- everyone is counting on you and you're just so special with your power and authority that God will literally speak through you to guide others to him. There's some appeal to the idea of being raised that way.

On the flip side, I do wish he could see my perspective and envision what being raised as the dependent, subservient, silent, object is like. Separating that the system was good for him, but not for me, but that he's NOT the system he benefited from is touchy.

Tonight we had a convo about Thomas Jefferson and the idea of whether "imposing" modern values on a historical system is realistic interpretation of events. I did say that when the accepted morality was only defined by rich white men, there's a problem because no one else had a say about morality, to weigh in on what slaves, women, or poor people thought about social mores of the era. He didn't get my point.

But my 16yo son brought up Hitler, and the possibility that he probably defined his morality as just fine, and imposed his morals on everyone -- so we talked about the 3rd Reich, and their moral viewpoint about cleansing the gene pool. That Jews, homosexuals, and others weren't exactly polled before deciding on that definition of the ideal society.

I felt like maybe, just maybe he seemed to hear what Im getting at, in a small way.
Last edited by Thoughtful on Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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alas
Posts: 2357
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Re: In Which Feminism creates Marriage and Family Problems

Post by alas » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:39 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:52 am
alas wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:31 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:23 am


Yes, this is really part of it. He is trying to fix it, but as we know, it's a trickle down system. I think he's been well trained to be a fixer -- as the responsible presiding authority, he has to keep his family happy. Understanding that the church is ultimately out of his control is hard. But again, he is not the problem I'm having, the church is. I think he sees himself as the church or the church as a reflection of him when I'm upset.
My husband reacts as if he s personally being attacked if I criticize the church. It is so much a part of his identity that he can't fully separate it from himself. We have talked about this issue, and in a way I understand it because what a person deeply believes is who they are, so if they believe the church is close to perfect in its truth and run personally by God, then my criticizing it is criticizing him, because he believes.
So true. I see this as well. I feel that it's something I can take his perspective on -- as a man in the church it's a totally different experience, being told from 12 on about your special abilities, and your responsibilities to preside/ provide/ protect -- everyone is counting on you and you're just so special with your power and authority that God will literally speak through you to guide others to him. There's some appeal to the idea of being raised that way.

On the flip side, I do wish he could see my perspective and envision what being raised as the dependent, subservient, silent, object is like. Separating that the system was good for him, but not for me, but that he's NOT the system he benefited from is touchy.

Tonight we had a convo about Thomas Jefferson and the idea of whether "imposing" modern values on a historical system is realistic interpretation of events. I did say that when the accepted morality was only defined by touch white men, there's a problem because no one else had a say about morality, to weigh in on what slaves, women, or poor people thought about social mores of the era. He didn't get my point.

But my 16yo son brought up Hitler, and the possibility that he probably defined his morality as just fine, and imposed his morals on everyone -- so we talked about the 3rd Reich, and their moral viewpoint about cleansing the gene pool. That Jews, homosexuals, and others weren't exactly polled before deciding on that definition of the ideal society.

I felt like maybe, just maybe he seemed to hear what Im getting at, in a small way.
I like your approach of looking at other situations in which a privileged group imposed their morality on the whole society, without giving the second class citizens a say, because that is still the situation we have in the church. If church was a government, it still has not given women the right to even vote, or own property in their own name or have a bank account in their own name, or drive cars. In the church women are still auxiliaries of their husbands, and not people in their own right. But the men are taught not to see it. They are taught to "respect" women but not to see them as equals. Sort of like teaching slave owners to be kind to their slaves without ever teaching the slave owners that the act of ownership itself dehumanizes the slave. You cannot be "kind" to someone you are dehumanizing.

I had to accept the the church was good to and good for my husband, and that it is part of him. Men do not understand male privilege, and in fact society works to hide it from them. They are treated as if they have earned the things they are given, as if they were more valiant in the pre-existence or something so they were made men, but then taught that we all chose our gender, so of course women are happy with their role. God wants it this way is the fall back excuse to justify their poor treatment of women, and if God wants it this way any woman who objects is by definition evil. All of this blinds them to the harm done to women.

Once back when the church was coddling my sexually abusive father and treating my mother and me like we were the problem, rather than him, my husband said, "If the church ever treated me the way it has treated you, I would leave." But he sure didn't expect me to leave it. Being female, he still expected that it was somehow not that painful to me to first be treated like a sex toy by my father, then told by the church that I was chewed gum, and then told I was worse than he was because I was not over the damage, which proved I was not willing to forgive and he who refuses to forgive is guilty of the greater sin. So, the church sat their and told me both that the sex abuse was not my fault, but that I was still chewed gum and worse than my abuser, and then tell me I was not "worthy" of a calling because all of this made me feel God must be a jerk. So, my husband understands that if HE was treated that way, he would not put up with it, but still I am supposed to put up with it because being female this kind of dehumanizations is not a problem--only if I was male would being blamed and held accountable for my father's sins be a problem.

So, men can see it, but they don't think it is a problem because women must be happy with the way God wants things, or it is their fault. Slave owners saw slaves the same way, because they had been taught that being slaves was what was best for blacks. Blacks were seen as unable to conduct their own lives. They were like children that could never grow up. Therefore, if the slaves objected, then they were fighting against God and what was best for them. Like a small child fights bedtime even though parents know it is what is best for them. We don't see small children as fully adult so we treat them as children. Well, men during slavery did not see black's as equals and they still do not see women as equals. They still see women as children who can never quite grow up. Otherwise why do they need a protector or someone to support them and their children. They can say the word equal only when they are thinking "equal=necessary, but DIFFERENT". What the church means when it says that women are equal is that women are necessary. Men could not exist without women, so women are necessary, and important to keep around. But they are not men. Men are the only REAL human beings that are fully adult men. Isn't this obvious?

I think it takes having daughters that a man loves and sees as equal to his sons, and watching them grow up in a sexist church for men to start to see it as unfair. A funny thing my DH did that kind of demonstrates this. My oldest got serious about a guy when she was 19. Well daddy blew up, " No daughter of mine is getting married at 19. It is way too young. You have to finish college and get some life experience." Um, that was perfectly good enough for his WIFE, but not his daughter. He didn't see it as bad when it was what he wanted. He saw his daughter as fully human, but saw his wife as woman.

So, summing up, it does not work to criticize the church. It hurts him because you are attackin an important part of him. He has to find the church's flaws by himself. You cannot point them out. But you can get him educated enough to start finding the flaws. So, these discussions about things "not church," but with the same problems are a great way to teach him.

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