DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
Post Reply
User avatar
Vlad the Emailer
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:03 pm
Location: Lower Midwest

DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Post by Vlad the Emailer » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:32 pm

After a particularly inspirational (to my DW) testimony meeting she decided to ask if I ever feel anything at church (which I attend occasionally, and solely for her benefit). By mutual consent we rarely talk about church things, but she thought surely God must speak to me in the midst of some of those heartfelt, tear filled, personal stories (as opposed to what a testimony is supposed to be, BTW).

I thought I was making some progress as I explained that she and others perceive things/events as having supernatural explanations where I just don't. We talked about the reasons why and eventually got around to Mormon specifics and some of the things she could read about in the essays.

She seemed to be able to accept that and even said she needed to go ahead and read the essays, but only a few minutes later was back at square one, crying, and saying all she ever wanted was to marry someone to go to the temple with and that would take her to the CK. But now she has to go to the temple "single again" and no CK for us! Unfortunately my belief that there is no CK wouldn't exactly help the situation, so there was little I could do beyond just sit there, closed mouthed, and shake my head.

One step forward and two steps back. I suppose we can look at people burning to the ground with David Koresh or killing themselves to board the comet to Heaven's Gate to see just how strong the psychology can be. :roll: :( :roll:
Last edited by Vlad the Emailer on Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest. - Anonymous

Say what you want about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying. - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
EternityIsNow
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:48 pm

Re: DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Post by EternityIsNow » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:52 pm

One possible example to use in this situation is to discuss the different 'feelings' responses people have to different types of movie or TV shows. One person might love chick flicks, and go through all the feelings while they watch. Another might love sporting events, thrillers, mysteries, etc., and have a full set of 'feelings' to those types of films. Those are emotional responses and they differ from person to person based on many factors. So are there some differences like that she might understand? Can you get wrapped up in a kind of show that she can watch with zero emotional response? That might help her understand how you can have no feelings during a meeting while others do. There is no one true type of movie or TV genre, we respond based on many complicated internal and environmental factors.

Getting past a CK worldview, that is hard. A focus on living in the present, rather than an imaginary afterlife, has helped me a lot. This takes time, and for all she knows, you could change your mind in the future, as could she. I think it is important to avoid catastrophising the situation. Finding a way to take life one day at a time has really been important for me in my own marriage as I have gone through this transition before my own DW. I also think it is very important to not allow the gap between you over religion to enter other parts of your life, and try not to sprint forward too fast, take the issues one at a time so nobody gets overwhelmed...

User avatar
Deepthinker
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:40 pm

Re: DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Post by Deepthinker » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:24 am

That's rough, I'm sorry. I don't have any other advice other than to keep up what you're doing. Reinforce to her that you love her.

DW and I had a discussion recently similar to this. Overall, it went well. I ended up telling her that she can continue believing in the CK, and striving for that, but that we shouldn't live for an uncertain after life. That we should live happily today. She doesn't think she will make it to the CK anyway, which made me smile. :)

User avatar
Vlad the Emailer
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:03 pm
Location: Lower Midwest

Re: DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Post by Vlad the Emailer » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:58 am

Thanks, both of you.

I edited the above to point out that I have belief that there is no CK, not certainty. The certainty is the problem.

Anyway, yes I do think as things go forward I will start pointing out how some "feeling the spirit" moments are just emotion. That issue goes to the heart of the indoctrination thing, IMO, as everything seems to be "the spirit" or a "prompting". I once pissed her off when walking by while she was on the phone telling someone about a prompting she recently had. In my exasperation I spoke what came to mind which was "oh for crying out loud, it's called getting an idea!". :roll:

I need to show her this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU6smO8q6Rg

It's a pretty good look at the issue of Mormon vs. non-Mormon spirituality.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest. - Anonymous

Say what you want about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying. - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
RubinHighlander
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:54 pm

Vlad, I've been there, watching DW crying and sobbing about how this was not what we had committed to each other, not what she had signed up for when we married then later sealed in the temple. It was very emotionally difficult for her, especially where this was her third try to get into an eternal marriage. She had some rough past situations and had her life fall apart multiple times. When we found each other it was like a dream come true for both of us. Then several years later, my shelf bowed and broke and she was just bewildered.

It was heartbreaking for me to watch her go through it and it really added to my cogdis and anger I felt toward the church. While I was still active, though not believing, I double my efforts to be a great husband and I reiterated to DW that my love for her was important to me; more important than my own struggles with the church. I told her I'd do whatever it would take to make our relationship strong, including going to church, temple, whatever. She could see that I was sincere in my struggles with the truth claims. I didn't get into deep details with her but some topics would arise from time to time. She had her own complaints about polygamy and the priesthood misogyny. Opportunities did come over time. I was patient. Things began to unravel for her because her knowing my struggles had planted seeds of doubt for her. There were three main events for her that finally broke her shelf: The leaked policy on the gays, the seer stone out of the closet and finding out her married daughter and SIL didn't believe it anymore and were on their way out.

Another thing that helped DW was to skip a Sunday once in a while and get out on an adventure to somewhere awesome together. She experienced some metaphysical emotions (spiritual experiences) outside the walls the the church or temple that exceeded anything she'd felt before. For example, watching the Milky Way and stars reflecting off the perfect glass surface of the Salt Flats. By disconnecting those feelings from the church it was an epiphany of sorts.

I guess I'm lucky, because once I really knew it was all BS, I only had to tread the wine press for about a year, then DW caught up. Every situation is different, but what helped me is the patience, revealing my sincere struggle with some of the issues, increased love and opportunity to carefully explain a few facts about what is causing the doubts. Try to do it in a way that does not tread on their belief, but explain the issues causes you true cogdis pain. To to show her how you are only sincerely seeking the truth with the conscience and intelligence for which God blessed you (even if you don't believe in that white-haired old guy). Also, if she has anything on her shelf, look for opportunity to build on those things, line upon line, precept upon precept.

Good luck brother!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7110
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Post by Hagoth » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:49 pm

“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4148
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:09 am

Sheesh! I thought this was going to be a sex thread (missionary position) or something of sorts. Disappointed. :?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
Vlad the Emailer
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:03 pm
Location: Lower Midwest

Re: DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Post by Vlad the Emailer » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:32 pm

Thanks Rubin. Huge congratulations on navigating your way so successfully through your TBM DW situation. My version will soon be going on it's second decade (since my disaffection) and DW is as Mormon as Mormon can be. She is just one of those "Rule #1: Mormonism is perfect. Rule #2: If anything to do with Mormonism isn't perfect, see Rule #1" types. She has her "spiritual witness" and the conversation is over...doubt comes from the devil. I've pointed out to her that a believing JW, or Scientologist, or Seventh Day Adventist could well say the same, and they do, but it all falls on deaf ears. Reason and rationality are for the faithless that are to be pitied and barely tolerated.

Anyway, thanks to you as well Hagoth. I've linked both of those video's now with the first one. I'd seen one of them before, but couldn't remember what it was called.

And last but not least, sorry Red Ryder. :o ;) But, a TBM two step of that sort would probably be full of lame crap about not removing ones garments and other no-no's, so probably not much of a loss. :cry:
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest. - Anonymous

Say what you want about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying. - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
MalcolmVillager
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:53 pm

DW and I are I a good spot right now. We have done too many 2 steps in the last 10 months. Right now I just go to church and pretend. She doesn't push back. We don't talk about doctrine. I let her bring g up what she wants. I never bring anything up. Sometimes she vents about church stuff or polygamy and I think she is ready to come down the rabbit hole, only to have her declare that the BOM is true 2 seconds later.

She know I drink morning Joe (only cold though) and has even taken a few sips of different flavors, and has joked maybe she should start.

We have skipped a few sundays and watched a few movies we never would have watched before. We are really in a great spot with communication and sex and overall intimacy.

I don't know how long I could do a really strained relationship. NOM has helped me those few times it has felt impossible. Every couple is different. I have learned that happiness never comes through comparison. Just double down on your love and commitment to her. That has made all the difference for us!

User avatar
MalcolmVillager
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: DW and I did the TBM two step last night.

Post by MalcolmVillager » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:55 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Vlad the emailer wrote: need to show her this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU6smO8q6Rg
Here are a couple more good videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMSU8Q ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycUvC9s4VYA
I so want to share this with DW and kids, but I am not sure it will go over well. It is enlightening to see how people gain their testimony of truth. Confirmation bias. GOOD feelings, etc...

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests