Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Linked
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Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Linked » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:17 am

DW and I started Dr. Kristy Money's Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook last night. It did not go well.

The first exercise is called getting vulnerable, and you are supposed to be open with your spouse about how much you know about each other about things like faith, hobbies, friends, family. Then you share. She seemed devastated when I briefly shared my feelings. It is not the first time she has heard it, and not much has changed since last time. It feels like she just won't deal with it.

We seem to be at an impasse. I don't want to continue tip toeing around my disaffection with the church, and can't see that working long term. For DW it's the opposite, she can't see us effectively dealing with my disaffection and her being able to stay married to me. I asked if she was afraid to really know me, and she said she is afraid that if we really know each other then it will be impossible to stay together because of our contradictory views. She feels judged by me all the time; whenever we say prayers or go to church or anything like that. I go along with all this without dragging my feet, but it's not enough.

She is especially afraid of me coming clean with our kids, she is worried that I will not let the kids believe. I have no plans to force them to believe or not, but I doubt their faith has much of a chance if they are given a real choice in today's world.

Hopefully the next session goes better. DW is not buying in one bit though, so my hope is small.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:43 am

Interesting report! I'm afraid this workbook wouldn't be accepted by my spouse as it comes from a feminist outsider. And for many of the same reasons you listed. Thanks for sharing your experiences with it.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:33 am

You definitely have my sympathy!

While we didn't do this particular workbook, we did do something similar while in our year of marriage therapy. Early on I realized that there was no way that I was going to get to be 100% open and honest with my feelings about the church even though the therapist said I should eventually be. Why you ask? Because my Mormon wife can't handle the truth and my true feelings about it were only killing the progress we were making in other aspects of our marriage that were more important to me then full disclosure and authenticity. The therapist suggested building stronger bonds first before tearing down others because it would destabilize the marriage.

I can report that our marriage is stronger and better for the therapy however the elephant is still in the room. We just don't talk about it in detail anymore because we were always at an impasse and didn't agree. So we agreed to disagree and still respect each other.

Have you both discussed if this is a deal breaker? It's a very difficult conversation but one you can only move forward from. If the answer is yes, then move towards separation. If it's no, then move towards reconciliation, respect, and acceptance.

Another thing to remember is that her Mormon fantasy fairy tale life has already become collateral damage. She won't get that back if you separate (because divorce is failure) and she won't get that back if you reconcile (because you're still an unbeliever). That's what makes this hurt so bad from her perspective. She's already completely lost everything!
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Linked
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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Linked » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:48 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:33 am
Have you both discussed if this is a deal breaker? It's a very difficult conversation but one you can only move forward from. If the answer is yes, then move towards separation. If it's no, then move towards reconciliation, respect, and acceptance.
That's the million dollar question. I have expressed that I don't think her staying faithful is a deal breaker for me, though she doesn't believe me. She may be right too. I think I can adequately respect her right to her beliefs while not agreeing, but she thinks I will not be able to resist belittling her beliefs all the time. She thinks I am a negative Nancy and won't be able to hold it in. I think part of the issue is that she will not be able to feel respected regardless of what I do if she knows I disagree. She hints that me being an open apostate is a deal breaker for her but won't commit to it.
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:33 am
Another thing to remember is that her Mormon fantasy fairy tale life has already become collateral damage. She won't get that back if you separate (because divorce is failure) and she won't get that back if you reconcile (because you're still an unbeliever). That's what makes this hurt so bad from her perspective. She's already completely lost everything!
She is keenly aware of this, as am I. I have destroyed all avenues of happiness for her. Each available path ends in misery. I can see why she would want to maintain the status quo of pretending things are ok, even though it is quite painful. But in my mind there is a possibility of happiness down each path she fears, so for me the status quo is misery and I want to get on with whatever we are going to do; be it separation or reconciliation.

Thank you for your comments, they are always appreciated. You too FFM.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Deepthinker
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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Deepthinker » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:05 pm

Sorry it isn’t going so well, but don’t give up hope. I tried this with my wife a while ago. She definitely resisted, didn’t want to do it at all. So, I just started asking her some of the questions in the workbook, to give her an idea about what is in it. I used a lot of Exercise 2 questions from the first section that were not church related. We had one of the best discussions ever, both learned some things about each other, we expanded well beyond the questions.

Then, I ask one of the questions in the workbook about what is her worst fear. Her answer: That none of our kids would marry in the temple. My answer: That she would leave me if I left the church.

She reassured me that she wouldn’t leave me if I were to leave the church. I told her I would support the kids in the church and help them get to the temple. From that point on, I began to push harder for our marriage, developing and strengthening it. I’ve kept my commitment, which has been very difficult. None of our kids know how I really feel about the church. I've been able to express different viewpoints to them about LGBT issues and other things.

In some ways I feel like we established a new contract that day, and so far it has worked OK, with plenty of ups and downs. What has really helped is finding more things to do together, knowing each other on a deeper level. That takes time, effort, but it has been so worth it. Our relationship is stronger than it has ever been, yet sometimes I still feel like I want to rewrite the contract and come clean with our kids. I'm sure I can leave the church and still support the kids getting married in the temple, but it just isn't the same. I know it is something I need to talk with her about again. I risk her worst fear coming true if I leave the church, yet she helped calm my fear about leaving me if I left the church. Kind of a messed up contract, right? :)

It sucks that your wife is hinting at leaving if you leave the church. If my wife’s response had been similar, I’m not sure what I would do in your shoes. I think I would still work hard to do more things with her, get to know her on that deeper level. Really feel for you.

Is there any interest in your wife listening to podcasts (my wife has zero interest)? There is a great one on Mormon Stories about two couples and how they navigated things, the newest episode. Of course, they all left the church so she may not be interested in that. There are some other podcasts that give the believing spouse's perspective. I think Mormon Stories has an old episode about that. Either way, I would say keep plugging away at the workbook the best you can. If you ever want to just talk over the phone, send me a PM.

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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Corsair » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:24 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:33 am
I can report that our marriage is stronger and better for the therapy however the elephant is still in the room. We just don't talk about it in detail anymore because we were always at an impasse and didn't agree. So we agreed to disagree and still respect each other.
This is pretty accurate on the state of my marriage and relationship with my wife. I have a weirdly higher tolerance for the weekly baloney sandwich served in 3 hours of church. Like RR, I concentrate on improving the non-doctrinal parts of our relationship.

The question of children is particularly difficult. It has been my experience that children will pick up on the degree of devotion that their parents really do feel towards the church. This is combined with the inevitable small or large rebellion that virtually all teenagers go through when they are figuring out their place in this world. I did not need to have an 'Angry Apostate Family Home Evening' with them because they largely figured it out themselves as they approached adulthood. Even when I attended church with them weekly they figured out my position and have all modified their degree of devotion. The LDS church works for some people and not for others. It's OK to let your children decide even though your faithful wife wants a different answer.

Linked, I cannot tell you what is the best course of action. I only know what has worked for me and I have know couples that stuck together in mixed faith marriages and couples that left the church together and still divorced. This seems to indicate that the LDS church is not the primary factor in whether or not you stay together. It's a contributing factor for certain and LDS social and doctrinal norms are not helping. But, it's less important than what set of outcomes and consequences you will be happier to live under and work towards.

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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Linked » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:27 pm

One interesting thing I noticed in my discussion with DW is that she strongly believes that she does things because she wants to, not because the church teaches it.

She was adamant that she wants to be a SAHM because she wants to be involved more with the kids than she could if she worked full-time. She doesn't seem particularly fulfilled by it, but won't consider that she is doing it because she was told to since she was a little girl. She was really nervous to have kids because she wasn't comfortable around them.

We talked about what she enjoys in church and I had guessed that it was the stability. She claims she likes how she feels when she is there, though she doesn't sing the hymns or seem particularly interested in the talks or lessons. And we baby sit 3 year olds for 2 hours of church which is mildly rewarding but there are many things she would rather do.

I mentioned the word "brainwashed" once and it feels like now she is doing everything she can to reinforce what I consider brainwashing with a sheen of real intent. It's annoying.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by BriansThoughtMirror » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:50 pm

Thanks for sharing your experience! I have considered doing some of that workbook with my wife, but never have. I wonder if, in my case, it would just be digging at a wound unnecessarily. But I'm pretty open about most of my feelings about the church now. If it's any comfort, even though it was absolute hell at first, we have come to a pretty good point of agreeing to disagree. I don't think she's dumb or brainwashed, she doesn't think I'm in league with Satan. We are just reasonable people doing our best. I think that was important.

I was also thinking of reading this book together with her, but I'm a little scared for some of the same reasons:
"In Faith and in Doubt: How Religious Believers and Nonbelievers Can Create Strong Marriages and Loving Families"
https://www.amazon.com/Faith-Doubt-Reli ... 0814433723

It seems like both parties need to be able to really accept some major differences, but mostly focus on the good things. I wish you the best of luck, and please keep sharing your experiences!
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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Linked » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:21 pm

BriansThoughtMirror wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:50 pm
Thanks for sharing your experience! I have considered doing some of that workbook with my wife, but never have. I wonder if, in my case, it would just be digging at a wound unnecessarily. But I'm pretty open about most of my feelings about the church now. If it's any comfort, even though it was absolute hell at first, we have come to a pretty good point of agreeing to disagree. I don't think she's dumb or brainwashed, she doesn't think I'm in league with Satan. We are just reasonable people doing our best. I think that was important.

I was also thinking of reading this book together with her, but I'm a little scared for some of the same reasons:
"In Faith and in Doubt: How Religious Believers and Nonbelievers Can Create Strong Marriages and Loving Families"
https://www.amazon.com/Faith-Doubt-Reli ... 0814433723

It seems like both parties need to be able to really accept some major differences, but mostly focus on the good things. I wish you the best of luck, and please keep sharing your experiences!
So far for me and DW it sure does feel like digging at a wound with little or no improvement. But maybe it will get better. The second session had no tears and she seemed more friendly the next day, but it was painful for me as she again told me how much I have hurt her and how that makes me the most painful thing in her life.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by alas » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:22 pm

Linked wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:27 pm
One interesting thing I noticed in my discussion with DW is that she strongly believes that she does things because she wants to, not because the church teaches it.

She was adamant that she wants to be a SAHM because she wants to be involved more with the kids than she could if she worked full-time. She doesn't seem particularly fulfilled by it, but won't consider that she is doing it because she was told to since she was a little girl. She was really nervous to have kids because she wasn't comfortable around them.

We talked about what she enjoys in church and I had guessed that it was the stability. She claims she likes how she feels when she is there, though she doesn't sing the hymns or seem particularly interested in the talks or lessons. And we baby sit 3 year olds for 2 hours of church which is mildly rewarding but there are many things she would rather do.

I mentioned the word "brainwashed" once and it feels like now she is doing everything she can to reinforce what I consider brainwashing with a sheen of real intent. It's annoying.
Um, yes, the word "brain washed" is for sure going to cause backlash. In your conversations with your spouse, there are certain words that are bound to make things worse. Avoid them.

She may want to be a SAHM because she has been taught that is best for her children, and what is wrong with that? See, if you tell her she is only doing it because the church tells her to, she is going to fight you on it and find the reasons she *wants* to. But if you approach it from a totally different angle and ask her why, you may get an honest answer. Your approach nsulted her first, then tries to discuss the issue. The approach I am suggesting asks her for her own reasons before bringing up anything controversial or insulting her by telling her she is brainwashed.

So, first off, ALL women are nervous to have kids. It changes a woman's life far more than it changes a man's. And women are nervous about what it will do to her health and her figure. Children change everything for a woman and really only change a few things for a man So, don't judge her love for her kids now by the cold feet she felt before having them. It is like asking her if she wants to marry you before you have even met. Of course not. But once the children are here and she knows she survived pregnancy and how all it has changed her life, then it is a whole different story. Like before I married, I wanted a two story house with fruit trees and chickens and at least an acre of land. I wanted stability. The LAST thing I wanted was to marry a career military man and move from hell to breakfast every year. Guess what? My husband spent 20 years in the AirForce and I never did get any chickens. So, what a person wants changes as circumstances change. Now she may really want what she thinks is best for the children. And what has the church taught her is best?

So, don't just start a fight, but start with how YOU feel and why, then ask her how she feels and why. So, something like,

You : "Dear, I notice that sometimes staying home seem like it is boring to you and I have heard other women complain about not getting to talk to an adult all week. So, I wondered if working in the nursery at church is the right calling? What do you think?"

Her: "Well, it is our calling, and we don't get to pick our calling."

You: "OK, are you saying you feel we SHOULD stay in the calling whether it is right for us or not?" (See, clarify if you are understanding her point)

Her: "Sounds knda stupid when you put it that way, but yes."

You: "All right, that is fair." (Validate her feelings) But do you feel you need something else? I mean you stay home with the kids all week, and I think that would drive me buggy." (State what you feel without projecting feelings onto her.)

Her: "Well, sometimes, I get bored with the same stuff, but I don't know what else I could do and still be at home with the kids"

You____________(making sure you understood by repeating what you think she meant.) You: ________(validating her feelings before going on)

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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by BriansThoughtMirror » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:30 pm

Linked wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:21 pm
So far for me and DW it sure does feel like digging at a wound with little or no improvement. But maybe it will get better. The second session had no tears and she seemed more friendly the next day, but it was painful for me as she again told me how much I have hurt her and how that makes me the most painful thing in her life.
I've had a lot of discussion with my wife, and being open has been necessary, at least to some degree. But dwelling on church differences hasn't helped. The biggest thing that's helped me was softening my anger at the church and distancing myself from it. That is, I give myself the space I need from church, and then when we're together, we can mostly focus on commonalities. That has made it all feel less raw. But doing other things together and building on other connections has been important. If I think about the church all the time, I just get angry again. Heck, I meant to give this forum a break, too...

Seriously, the biggest things for me have been time, distance, and withholding judgement. And maybe an incredibly kind and empathetic (and 100% TBM) wife. I didn't ever think things could recover as much as they have. Now I think they might keep getting better (I hope!).
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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Linked » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:59 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:22 pm
Um, yes, the word "brain washed" is for sure going to cause backlash. In your conversations with your spouse, there are certain words that are bound to make things worse. Avoid them.

She may want to be a SAHM because she has been taught that is best for her children, and what is wrong with that? See, if you tell her she is only doing it because the church tells her to, she is going to fight you on it and find the reasons she *wants* to. But if you approach it from a totally different angle and ask her why, you may get an honest answer. Your approach nsulted her first, then tries to discuss the issue. The approach I am suggesting asks her for her own reasons before bringing up anything controversial or insulting her by telling her she is brainwashed.

So, first off, ALL women are nervous to have kids. It changes a woman's life far more than it changes a man's. And women are nervous about what it will do to her health and her figure. Children change everything for a woman and really only change a few things for a man So, don't judge her love for her kids now by the cold feet she felt before having them. It is like asking her if she wants to marry you before you have even met. Of course not. But once the children are here and she knows she survived pregnancy and how all it has changed her life, then it is a whole different story. Like before I married, I wanted a two story house with fruit trees and chickens and at least an acre of land. I wanted stability. The LAST thing I wanted was to marry a career military man and move from hell to breakfast every year. Guess what? My husband spent 20 years in the AirForce and I never did get any chickens. So, what a person wants changes as circumstances change. Now she may really want what she thinks is best for the children. And what has the church taught her is best?

So, don't just start a fight, but start with how YOU feel and why, then ask her how she feels and why. So, something like,

You : "Dear, I notice that sometimes staying home seem like it is boring to you and I have heard other women complain about not getting to talk to an adult all week. So, I wondered if working in the nursery at church is the right calling? What do you think?"

Her: "Well, it is our calling, and we don't get to pick our calling."

You: "OK, are you saying you feel we SHOULD stay in the calling whether it is right for us or not?" (See, clarify if you are understanding her point)

Her: "Sounds knda stupid when you put it that way, but yes."

You: "All right, that is fair." (Validate her feelings) But do you feel you need something else? I mean you stay home with the kids all week, and I think that would drive me buggy." (State what you feel without projecting feelings onto her.)

Her: "Well, sometimes, I get bored with the same stuff, but I don't know what else I could do and still be at home with the kids"

You____________(making sure you understood by repeating what you think she meant.) You: ________(validating her feelings before going on)
Thank you for your comments.

The brainwashed comment popped out one time a couple years ago on accident and she has clung to it, I haven't used the word since. But since I used it once, she assumes that I think everything she does is because she is brainwashed. I do avoid inflammatory language as much as possible, but she translates everything into inflammatory language. She never forgets anything I have done that has hurt her.

I don't care if she is a SAHM or a working mom or whatever. Ok, I kind of care because she complains about not having enough money in the bank and has a masters degree in a high paying and in demand field. But since realizing that I was brainwashed and all my decisions were prescribed for me from before my birth I am sensitive to myself and others being pushed to have inauthentic desires. So I want her to reflect on herself and decide what SHE wants, and I will continue to support her in it. I want her to be her and to share herself with me.

Thanks for the insight into women and having kids. She most definitely wants what is best for the children, she would, and does, do anything and everything for them. I will give her a break for being nervous about kids.

I will try to be better with the way I approach our conversations. Unfortunately she doesn't like to communicate so these methods usually lead to her telling me to stop with the 20 questions, but what else can I do?
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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alas
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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by alas » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:05 pm

Linked wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:59 pm
alas wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:22 pm
Um, yes, the word "brain washed" is for sure going to cause backlash. In your conversations with your spouse, there are certain words that are bound to make things worse. Avoid them.

She may want to be a SAHM because she has been taught that is best for her children, and what is wrong with that? See, if you tell her she is only doing it because the church tells her to, she is going to fight you on it and find the reasons she *wants* to. But if you approach it from a totally different angle and ask her why, you may get an honest answer. Your approach nsulted her first, then tries to discuss the issue. The approach I am suggesting asks her for her own reasons before bringing up anything controversial or insulting her by telling her she is brainwashed.

So, first off, ALL women are nervous to have kids. It changes a woman's life far more than it changes a man's. And women are nervous about what it will do to her health and her figure. Children change everything for a woman and really only change a few things for a man So, don't judge her love for her kids now by the cold feet she felt before having them. It is like asking her if she wants to marry you before you have even met. Of course not. But once the children are here and she knows she survived pregnancy and how all it has changed her life, then it is a whole different story. Like before I married, I wanted a two story house with fruit trees and chickens and at least an acre of land. I wanted stability. The LAST thing I wanted was to marry a career military man and move from hell to breakfast every year. Guess what? My husband spent 20 years in the AirForce and I never did get any chickens. So, what a person wants changes as circumstances change. Now she may really want what she thinks is best for the children. And what has the church taught her is best?

So, don't just start a fight, but start with how YOU feel and why, then ask her how she feels and why. So, something like,

You : "Dear, I notice that sometimes staying home seem like it is boring to you and I have heard other women complain about not getting to talk to an adult all week. So, I wondered if working in the nursery at church is the right calling? What do you think?"

Her: "Well, it is our calling, and we don't get to pick our calling."

You: "OK, are you saying you feel we SHOULD stay in the calling whether it is right for us or not?" (See, clarify if you are understanding her point)

Her: "Sounds knda stupid when you put it that way, but yes."

You: "All right, that is fair." (Validate her feelings) But do you feel you need something else? I mean you stay home with the kids all week, and I think that would drive me buggy." (State what you feel without projecting feelings onto her.)

Her: "Well, sometimes, I get bored with the same stuff, but I don't know what else I could do and still be at home with the kids"

You____________(making sure you understood by repeating what you think she meant.) You: ________(validating her feelings before going on)
Thank you for your comments.

The brainwashed comment popped out one time a couple years ago on accident and she has clung to it, I haven't used the word since. But since I used it once, she assumes that I think everything she does is because she is brainwashed. I do avoid inflammatory language as much as possible, but she translates everything into inflammatory language. She never forgets anything I have done that has hurt her.

I don't care if she is a SAHM or a working mom or whatever. Ok, I kind of care because she complains about not having enough money in the bank and has a masters degree in a high paying and in demand field. But since realizing that I was brainwashed and all my decisions were prescribed for me from before my birth I am sensitive to myself and others being pushed to have inauthentic desires. So I want her to reflect on herself and decide what SHE wants, and I will continue to support her in it. I want her to be her and to share herself with me.

Thanks for the insight into women and having kids. She most definitely wants what is best for the children, she would, and does, do anything and everything for them. I will give her a break for being nervous about kids.

I will try to be better with the way I approach our conversations. Unfortunately she doesn't like to communicate so these methods usually lead to her telling me to stop with the 20 questions, but what else can I do?
LOL about "stop with the twenty questions." Of course, I have never gotten that response....more than three times in the same conversation. I also, get, "Mom, I am NOT your client." And, "Stop with the counseling techniques already." So, yes, these ways of having a conversation are ones you would be taught in a class on interpersonal communications. But if you mix a few of them into the usual conversation without acting too much like a "head shrink" then they really cam improve the communication.

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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Linked » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:45 pm

Huge breakthrough last night!!!

We are on the 2nd exercise which can last a few sessions. You answer 60 questions like "name my 2 best friends" or "which relative am I most afraid of negatively impacting our kids because they are overbearing", answer for yourself and guess at the answer for your spouse. We had made it through 20 of the questions and I asked her if she would do 20 more with me. Her face fell, and she looked despondent and angry and didn't respond. I turned around and asked again. She responded that she would do 10 questions, still angry.

I said, "You seem really angry about doing this workbook, are you?" She said she wasn't happy about it. The voice in my head said if this is how she feels about communicating with me maybe I should make it an ultimatum and threaten divorce; super useful idea. Instead, I asked her if she saw any value in doing the workbook together. AND SHE SAID YES!!!!

This is the first time she has had anything positive to say about any of this. She hated couples counseling, she hates any real heart to heart talks, and she gets despondent whenever I bring up the workbook. But at least she recognizes the point of it and she did it.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by slavereeno » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:57 pm

I have no real advice to offer, just sending some empathy vibes your way. I hate feeling like my lot in life is to be a constant source of pain to DW, that's not a happy place to be. Best of luck, and its been helpful for me to follow your journey.

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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by wtfluff » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:25 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:45 pm
But at least she recognizes the point of it and she did it.
HOORAY!

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Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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a1986
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by a1986 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:05 am

Linked wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:17 am
DW and I started Dr. Kristy Money's Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook last night. It did not go well.

The first exercise is called getting vulnerable, and you are supposed to be open with your spouse about how much you know about each other about things like faith, hobbies, friends, family. Then you share. She seemed devastated when I briefly shared my feelings. It is not the first time she has heard it, and not much has changed since last time. It feels like she just won't deal with it.

We seem to be at an impasse. I don't want to continue tip toeing around my disaffection with the church, and can't see that working long term. For DW it's the opposite, she can't see us effectively dealing with my disaffection and her being able to stay married to me. I asked if she was afraid to really know me, and she said she is afraid that if we really know each other then it will be impossible to stay together because of our contradictory views. She feels judged by me all the time; whenever we say prayers or go to church or anything like that. I go along with all this without dragging my feet, but it's not enough.

She is especially afraid of me coming clean with our kids, she is worried that I will not let the kids believe. I have no plans to force them to believe or not, but I doubt their faith has much of a chance if they are given a real choice in today's world.

Hopefully the next session goes better. DW is not buying in one bit though, so my hope is small.
I'm sorry to hear that. It sounds like a rough situation you're in. Hopefully over time your wife adjusts and becomes more open / receptive to you and your new beliefs. I actually printed off this workbook for my husband and I as well! Thank you for sharing that.

a1986
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by a1986 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:13 am

Linked wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:45 pm
Huge breakthrough last night!!!

We are on the 2nd exercise which can last a few sessions. You answer 60 questions like "name my 2 best friends" or "which relative am I most afraid of negatively impacting our kids because they are overbearing", answer for yourself and guess at the answer for your spouse. We had made it through 20 of the questions and I asked her if she would do 20 more with me. Her face fell, and she looked despondent and angry and didn't respond. I turned around and asked again. She responded that she would do 10 questions, still angry.

I said, "You seem really angry about doing this workbook, are you?" She said she wasn't happy about it. The voice in my head said if this is how she feels about communicating with me maybe I should make it an ultimatum and threaten divorce; super useful idea. Instead, I asked her if she saw any value in doing the workbook together. AND SHE SAID YES!!!!

This is the first time she has had anything positive to say about any of this. She hated couples counseling, she hates any real heart to heart talks, and she gets despondent whenever I bring up the workbook. But at least she recognizes the point of it and she did it.
That sounds promising. My husband and I are in a similar situation--we're trying couples counseling and now I've printed off the workbook. We also have "heart to hearts" regularly, but mostly after I initiate. I also pushed for the counseling. His issue is more centered around wanting to avoid any conflict / "contention." I feel he confuses honesty with being "mean" or potentially hurting the other person. It took him forever to admit that he has also been considering divorce after I told him I'd been thinking about it.

At least your wife is honest I suppose? Why do you think she doesn't want to do the workbook? Why didn't she like counseling?

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Linked
Posts: 1533
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Linked » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:02 am

a1986 wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:05 am
I'm sorry to hear that. It sounds like a rough situation you're in. Hopefully over time your wife adjusts and becomes more open / receptive to you and your new beliefs. I actually printed off this workbook for my husband and I as well! Thank you for sharing that.
Thanks for the sympathy, I hope things go better too. Good luck with your husband and the workbook!
a1986 wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:13 am
That sounds promising. My husband and I are in a similar situation--we're trying couples counseling and now I've printed off the workbook. We also have "heart to hearts" regularly, but mostly after I initiate. I also pushed for the counseling. His issue is more centered around wanting to avoid any conflict / "contention." I feel he confuses honesty with being "mean" or potentially hurting the other person. It took him forever to admit that he has also been considering divorce after I told him I'd been thinking about it.

At least your wife is honest I suppose? Why do you think she doesn't want to do the workbook? Why didn't she like counseling?
Your husband sounds a lot like my wife in that regard, she seems to think that keeping the peace justifies keeping everything buried. I feel like getting them out in the open is the only way to understand and change the situation for the better. Getting her to be honest has been a long journey and she only seems to do it in anger right now, but we are in the early days of honest communication still.

She didn't like counseling and doesn't like the workbook because the situation is so bleak to her. Whenever she really confronts it she feels like we are probably wasting our time and should just get divorced already. It's possible she is right, but I hold out hope that we might be able to work through this pain and build up our relationship; but I think the only way to do that is more communication which makes her feel more bad about our situation. Just gotta get over the hump. It's weird though, because she says she is always aware and in pain of how bad things are, so ignoring it doesn't make her happy either. She is resigned to the idea that all paths lead to her misery, it's really sad.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Red Ryder
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Re: Mixed Faith Marriage Workbook

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:28 am

Question for anyone here, not just Linked.

How do your conversations end? On a high note? Or mostly with disappointment and hurt?

Out therapist suggested ways to try and end the conversations on a high note and a hug. Like hugging it out and thanking each other for the conversation. Mutual appreciation of sorts.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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