Believing DW asked for CES letter

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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IT_Veteran
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Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by IT_Veteran » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 am

I was in bed reading the CES letter on my phone last night. She scooted over to see what I was reading and I told her she probably didn't want to read it. She asked what it was and I explained it a bit. She respects my decision to leave the church, even if she doesn't understand it. However, she's worried that reading the CES letter will make me bitter and angry (to be fair, it does). I tried to explain that the author mostly uses church resources (website and byu.edu mostly) to question.

She asked me to send her the link, so I did. I'm concerned that if it does raise questions or cause doubt that she may be resentful, at least initially, of me having shared it with her. We discussed that too. I'm not sure if she'll actually read it or not, but this whole mixed-faith thing is difficult and we're only in our second week of it!

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Sheamus Moore
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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by Sheamus Moore » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:27 am

Since everyone is different it's difficult to say how your relationship will be impacted. When I shared the letter with my DW she read through it (not in great detail) and afterwards agreed it was very disturbing. Though I've not left the church entirely, she's still more 'in' than I am. At the very least she has a better understanding and is actually supportive as I struggle.

Sounds like your wife has knocked, lightly, and you have opened. She may be seeking to understand. I wish the best to the both of you.

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Jeffret
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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by Jeffret » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:31 am

Let me just point out again something that I've observed and pointed out a number of times: In general men tend to find the CES Letter more convincing and damning than women do. Many women shrug off the CES Letter as insignificant while many men laud its praises. There are many exceptions certainly. I'm a man but I find the CES Letter somewhat boring and have never managed to read through the whole thing.

Be sure to allow your wife the room and freedom to experience and think differently. If the two of you do end up discussing it and not wholly agreeing on its importance, it is better to approach the discussion by sharing what the Letter means to you. Place it in context of your experiences and feelings and allow for hers to be different. Be supportive of her differences. Don't discuss the Letter as fact, but as to how you feel about it and what the items in it mean to you.

She may read it and fully agree with you, but she may not. You should work hard to not demonstrate any criticism of her for her different response. It is more important to be supportive and loving towards each other, even in your differences, than to be factually correct about some insignificant detail of Mormon history.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by IT_Veteran » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:05 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:31 am
Let me just point out again something that I've observed and pointed out a number of times: In general men tend to find the CES Letter more convincing and damning than women do. Many women shrug off the CES Letter as insignificant while many men laud its praises. There are many exceptions certainly. I'm a man but I find the CES Letter somewhat boring and have never managed to read through the whole thing.

Be sure to allow your wife the room and freedom to experience and think differently. If the two of you do end up discussing it and not wholly agreeing on its importance, it is better to approach the discussion by sharing what the Letter means to you. Place it in context of your experiences and feelings and allow for hers to be different. Be supportive of her differences. Don't discuss the Letter as fact, but as to how you feel about it and what the items in it mean to you.

She may read it and fully agree with you, but she may not. You should work hard to not demonstrate any criticism of her for her different response. It is more important to be supportive and loving towards each other, even in your differences, than to be factually correct about some insignificant detail of Mormon history.
Thanks all, and especially for this. I'm trying to frame my disagreement with the church as my own. I started using phrases like "I believe" and "to me" when talking about my concerns, rather than presenting them as just something that everyone should agree with. When I told her that what I find troubling in the CES letter is largely the early history of the church and Joseph Smith, she let me know that "church history doesn't scare [her]". I'm of the opinion, of course, that it should. I didn't suggest to her that maybe she doesn't know all the history, I've gotten pretty good and trying to think through what I'm saying before it comes out of my mouth, though that was the first thought that crossed my mind.

I wasn't aware of the difference between men and women and the way they receive the letter. I find that somewhat surprising, particularly since most people are at least generally aware of Joseph's polygamy but what we hear is so far removed from what actually happened.

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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by Jeffret » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:38 pm

IT_Veteran wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:05 pm
Thanks all, and especially for this. I'm trying to frame my disagreement with the church as my own. I started using phrases like "I believe" and "to me" when talking about my concerns, rather than presenting them as just something that everyone should agree with. When I told her that what I find troubling in the CES letter is largely the early history of the church and Joseph Smith, she let me know that "church history doesn't scare [her]". I'm of the opinion, of course, that it should. I didn't suggest to her that maybe she doesn't know all the history, I've gotten pretty good and trying to think through what I'm saying before it comes out of my mouth, though that was the first thought that crossed my mind.
Church history doesn't scare me. Nor do I find it all that terribly troubling. I freely admit there's a lot of it that I don't know, but when I've glanced through the CES Letter I didn't find anything new or surprising.

What concerns are the actions of the Church and its leaders today. The culture of the Church. The exclusions and limitations. I could possibly participate in a church where we could discuss its troublesome history, but not one that continues to hide it and perpetuates problems.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by Stig » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:45 pm

IMO, the tone of the CES Letter can be a little off-putting. I suggest "Letter For My Wife" for something that is even more comprehensive and with a less angry tone. Link: http://www.letterformywife.com/
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

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Jeffret
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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by Jeffret » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:56 pm

Stig wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:45 pm
IMO, the tone of the CES Letter can be a little off-putting. I suggest "Letter For My Wife" for something that is even more comprehensive and with a less angry tone. Link: http://www.letterformywife.com/
It's good, but it has the same fundamental flaw. It comes from a predominantly male perspective. This doesn't mean that all men are alike and all women are alike but different from men, but that society, and particularly Mormon society, raises girls and boys with far different expectations and experiences. This historical emphasis tends to be more meaningful to men. Women tend to be more focused on social aspects, how they interact with the Church today, and how it impacts their social connections. This comes from years of training.

Many men make the mistake of thinking that what is important to them in these areas should also be important to their wife. Even ignoring the imposed gender roles this isn't necessarily the case between any two people.

Truly listening to your partner is important. Considering their different viewpoints or experiences.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Red Ryder
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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:45 pm

Here's a list of great reading If you want to push the right lady buttons:

1. In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton (LDS author).

2. Year of Polygamy podcast

3. Courageous, the untold story of Nephi navigating his heterosexuality in the wilderness.

4. A Middle Eastern Love Affair, the untold story of Lehi and his struggles to maintain emotional intimacy with his wife in the wilderness as she constantly questions his sense of direction.

5. Meso-American Sunsets, the story of a young Nephite Warrior who finds love in a Lamanite prisoner of war camp. A love story viewed from the distance between a Nephite boy in his cell, and the beautiful dark skinned girl who gathers prison laundry from the clothes line outside his cell window.

6. Sleepless in Zarahemla, the love story of a man with insomnia who falls in love with the urgent care nurse from the south side of Z-town.

7. A Handsome Hunk Named Heleman. The true inspired story of a man who eventually led young stripling warriors to their death. The story focuses on a young protagonist who secretly seduced and comforted the mothers and documents multiple love affairs before taking the boys off to war.

8. Samuel the Lamanite, the untold true story of why he was really on top of that wall. In this never before read account, Samuel's love affair with the daughter of the Chief of Security is exposed leading to his near death climb and eventual escape from the city wall. As he turns to catch a glimpse of his lady lover one last time, the soldiers violently shoot arrows at him as captured in the now infamous painting found in the Book of Mormon.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

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Stig
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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by Stig » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:30 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:45 pm
Here's a list of great reading If you want to push the right lady buttons:

1. In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton (LDS author).

2. Year of Polygamy podcast

3. Courageous, the untold story of Nephi navigating his heterosexuality in the wilderness.

4. A Middle Eastern Love Affair, the untold story of Lehi and his struggles to maintain emotional intimacy with his wife in the wilderness as she constantly questions his sense of direction.

5. Meso-American Sunsets, the story of a young Nephite Warrior who finds love in a Lamanite prisoner of war camp. A love story viewed from the distance between a Nephite boy in his cell, and the beautiful dark skinned girl who gathers prison laundry from the clothes line outside his cell window.

6. Sleepless in Zarahemla, the love story of a man with insomnia who falls in love with the urgent care nurse from the south side of Z-town.

7. A Handsome Hunk Named Heleman. The true inspired story of a man who eventually led young stripling warriors to their death. The story focuses on a young protagonist who secretly seduced and comforted the mothers and documents multiple love affairs before taking the boys off to war.

8. Samuel the Lamanite, the untold true story of why he was really on top of that wall. In this never before read account, Samuel's love affair with the daughter of the Chief of Security is exposed leading to his near death climb and eventual escape from the city wall. As he turns to catch a glimpse of his lady lover one last time, the soldiers violently shoot arrows at him as captured in the now infamous painting found in the Book of Mormon.
Image
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

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Linked
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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by Linked » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:07 pm

My DW and I seem to have a less healthy relationship than you and yours. My DW resents that I investigate stuff, but she doesn't want to talk about that resentment, so I just hide it so I don't get passive aggressive frustrated responses. She would never ask for a copy; I have repeatedly offered to show her what I write on NOM but she has not taken me up on it. But we are working on it and this is not about me. It's great that the two of you are communicating, even though it will still be a bumpy ride.
Jeffret wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:38 pm
What concerns are the actions of the Church and its leaders today. The culture of the Church. The exclusions and limitations. I could possibly participate in a church where we could discuss its troublesome history, but not one that continues to hide it and perpetuates problems.
This comment reminded me of a compilation I stumbled onto on reddit that goes through the church leadership's history of lying. It went on in the early church and continues today. To me, a borderline millennial who places a huge value on transparency, this is as important as the details of what they are lying about. https://proveallthingsholdfasttogood.wo ... h-history/.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by MerrieMiss » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:32 pm

In a recent podcast John Dehlin talked briefly about the difference between utility (does it work for me) and validity (is it true) in one's approach to Mormonism and stated that he finds that more men are concerned with validity and more women with utility. I found an older podcast with Dr. David Christian who said the same thing.

The CES letter, if I remember correctly, is mainly concerned with validity. This may be why men favor it. The issues surrounding polygamy usually are based in utility - how it treats others, how it works within the community, how it elevates some men (and women) above other men (and women) etc., and becomes an issue for women.

I think most people do not strictly use a validity only or utility only approach, but a combination of both, perhaps being more heavily weighted on one side than the other. But I think it is important to understand how different people approach the church; what destroys it for one person, does not destroy it for another. If a woman (or man) finds worth in participating, the community, the structure, etc., all of the truth claims fall flat because it isn't about the truth, it's about how the person feels functioning within that community. Likewise, all of the friendships, rituals, get togethers, worthiness standards and in group signaling, etc. do not mean anything to the person who is there because they believe it is the truth.

My conclusion is that I can't convert my husband to my way of thinking. The most I can hope for is understanding and I can be satisfied with that. That your wife even asked for the CES letter is pretty nice, whether or not she reads or agrees with it.

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Jeffret
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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by Jeffret » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:56 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:32 pm
In a recent podcast John Dehlin talked briefly about the difference between utility (does it work for me) and validity (is it true) in one's approach to Mormonism and stated that he finds that more men are concerned with validity and more women with utility. I found an older podcast with Dr. David Christian who said the same thing.

The CES letter, if I remember correctly, is mainly concerned with validity. This may be why men favor it. The issues surrounding polygamy usually are based in utility - how it treats others, how it works within the community, how it elevates some men (and women) above other men (and women) etc., and becomes an issue for women.

I think most people do not strictly use a validity only or utility only approach, but a combination of both, perhaps being more heavily weighted on one side than the other. But I think it is important to understand how different people approach the church; what destroys it for one person, does not destroy it for another. If a woman (or man) finds worth in participating, the community, the structure, etc., all of the truth claims fall flat because it isn't about the truth, it's about how the person feels functioning within that community. Likewise, all of the friendships, rituals, get togethers, worthiness standards and in group signaling, etc. do not mean anything to the person who is there because they believe it is the truth.

My conclusion is that I can't convert my husband to my way of thinking. The most I can hope for is understanding and I can be satisfied with that. That your wife even asked for the CES letter is pretty nice, whether or not she reads or agrees with it.
All of this!

The utility / validity dichotomy is a decent way of looking at this. It certainly doesn't cover all of it but it provides a simple way of describing and understanding two very different approaches.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

Thoughtful
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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:10 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:56 pm
MerrieMiss wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:32 pm
In a recent podcast John Dehlin talked briefly about the difference between utility (does it work for me) and validity (is it true) in one's approach to Mormonism and stated that he finds that more men are concerned with validity and more women with utility. I found an older podcast with Dr. David Christian who said the same thing.

The CES letter, if I remember correctly, is mainly concerned with validity. This may be why men favor it. The issues surrounding polygamy usually are based in utility - how it treats others, how it works within the community, how it elevates some men (and women) above other men (and women) etc., and becomes an issue for women.

I think most people do not strictly use a validity only or utility only approach, but a combination of both, perhaps being more heavily weighted on one side than the other. But I think it is important to understand how different people approach the church; what destroys it for one person, does not destroy it for another. If a woman (or man) finds worth in participating, the community, the structure, etc., all of the truth claims fall flat because it isn't about the truth, it's about how the person feels functioning within that community. Likewise, all of the friendships, rituals, get togethers, worthiness standards and in group signaling, etc. do not mean anything to the person who is there because they believe it is the truth.

My conclusion is that I can't convert my husband to my way of thinking. The most I can hope for is understanding and I can be satisfied with that. That your wife even asked for the CES letter is pretty nice, whether or not she reads or agrees with it.
All of this!

The utility / validity dichotomy is a decent way of looking at this. It certainly doesn't cover all of it but it provides a simple way of describing and understanding two very different approaches.
I value the community, but the cog dis of pretending to believe to fully participate and maintain social capital is unsustainable.

I would pay some serious cash to get Spouseman to read the CES Letter, but he is resistant because he likes believing. He offered to march with Sam but will not even consider reading "anti" materials.

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IT_Veteran
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Re: Believing DW asked for CES letter

Post by IT_Veteran » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:23 pm

My wife doesn’t want to see anti stuff either. She has started reading the gospel essays and ordered Rough Stone Rolling and the Mormons and Masons book. Those are both available at Deseret Book.

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