Avoiding conflict

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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MerrieMiss
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Avoiding conflict

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:11 am

I thought my husband and I were coming to a place where we were beginning to discuss things in depth. We even had a conversation about the Book of Mormon, the seer stone, and Joseph Smith's ability to write the book - he brought it up. He brought up the Strangites. He went to his parents with some questions and got evasion, disavowal, and completely useless answers. A couple of Sundays ago when I was having a bad day he told me he would appreciate it if I could tell him why it hurts so much (we were in the car and the kids were screaming so it ended there).

But things have been stressful. He is really busy at work and hates his job. And our kid needs surgery soon so I agreed not to press on church things until that is finished. I'm fairly certain that we'll have a big blow up fight about church related crap as it relates to the kid's procedure.

I'd been advocating for a small WoW change - I'd like a bottle of wine for recipes - and he told me it was too much for him so I agreed to let everything stay as it is until after the surgery. And so I am turning inward again and feeling quite alone. I thought we were coming to a point of understanding (not agreement, but understanding) and now I worry that we're going backward.

He says he'd rather avoid conflict because it doesn't change anything. I just wish I could get him to see that avoiding the conflict doesn't bring us closer together. If anything, it's just helping me go my own way without him.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:24 pm

If he wants to avoid conflict then take that as a pass to choose for yourself what to do. Go to the grocery store and buy the cooking wine as if it was a loaf of bread, a stick of butter, or a gallon of milk. Put it in your cart, pay for it, drive it home and put it away on the pantry with all of the other grocery. Go about your business and cook all of the wonderful meals you're planning as if nothing new is happening. When the time comes that he notices, you can turn towards him and say, "honey I know you wanted to avoid conflict so I made the best choice for you and I. Isn't the food wonderful?

In regards to conflict, it's important for a marriage to have healthy conflict because that spurs growth. Sort of like weight lifting for your marriage muscles.

Good luck with your kids surgery. That's always a tough time. It can also be a time for you both to turn towards each other and provide emotional support.
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alas
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by alas » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:19 am

I had to laugh about RR saying go to the grocery stor and buy wine....um..someone doesn't live in Utah. In Utah, you have to go to the state owned evil containment store.

Conflict avoidance is good when the conflict is unproductive, and right now, with everything else going on, sounds like the conflict will just add animosity to the stress.

So, take a step back and a deep breath. With my DH, it went back and forth, progress, retrenchment, progress, retrenchment. When he sees me "on one" about the church, he just calmly says he won't argue. On the other hand, if I see that he is starting to feel threatened by something I say, I back off and soften it for him. I try not to say the worst things I think about the church and keep them to myself.

I have learned that when he is upset by something, like right now the church coverup of the Bishop crap has him upset. So, I have been really quiet because, yes it shows great progress on his part, but when he is already suffering cognitive dissonance, it is not the time to push him into further cog dis. That will just cause a blow up and I will be the bad guy instead of the church being the bad guy. When you see progress, it is so tempting to push for more, but it is not the time.

Timing is important. Take it slow. Give him time to settle things in his mind. Some people need lots of time to process things, while others are quick to resolve the cog dis. It is good that he is bringing things up and wishing he could understand your hurt. But understanding your hurt, causes him hurt.

I think putting it all off till after the kid has the surgery is best.

On another note, you are at the worst stage marriages go through. The little kid time is most stressful on marriages. There is very little time for the two of you to talk, so it is important to make time. Date time. Away from the kids time. Adult time. Instead of worrying about how you are keeping things about the church inside and growing apart, look at the bigger picture. The two of you need time together without the kids to stay connected before you even tackle the church issue.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by MerrieMiss » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:40 am

I want to thank you both for your responses. I've had a crazy week, and being here hasn't really been a priority.

I'm not sure what it was about alas's post (otherwise I'd quote it) but it really talked me down and to a better place. I know taking it slow is best, but I feel like I've been taking it slow for a long time. I feel like I've coasted along for several years now kind of doing the same thing and nothing has really happened, and now a lot of things are coming to a head all at once. I'm living a double life and they're coming into conflict with one another, it's really taking a toll on me. It's a good reminder not to have knee jerk reactions.
Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:24 pm
In regards to conflict, it's important for a marriage to have healthy conflict because that spurs growth. Sort of like weight lifting for your marriage muscles.
I didn't know what to title this post because I wasn't sure what it was about, because it really isn't about the wine, it's about how we avoid conflict. We are in a conflict-avoidant marriage and it is so unhealthy. He comes from a completely conflict avoidant family, particularly his father who would have no sports or board games if he had his way because they are competitive and competition brings conflict. I spent the entire first year of my marriage being angry and fighting by myself because my husband simply doesn't know how to. It's always been hard to try to explain to people why it is frustrating because most people don't want the conflict they have; I've been told how fortunate I am and not to complain about it, but to have none is emptiness. We got to a place where we live parallel lives and it bothers me immensely, but he seems very comfortable with it. It's sad because it reminds me of Tova Mirvis's book (or interview with Dehlin, maybe both) where she says by the time she realized or had the courage to see the problems in her marriage, it was too late for her and her husband because they had lived too long without tackling any of the really important things together - they didn't have the tools for discussing, resolving, even fighting about the important things and her marriage dissolved. That isn't what I want, but sometimes I wonder if it can ever change. He's a good person and so am I, but sometimes that really isn't enough. I feel like I'm carrying the emotional burden for both of us and it's wearing on me immensely.

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Corsair
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by Corsair » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:51 am

MerrieMiss wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:40 am
That isn't what I want, but sometimes I wonder if it can ever change. He's a good person and so am I, but sometimes that really isn't enough. I feel like I'm carrying the emotional burden for both of us and it's wearing on me immensely.
I often feel this way also. My wife really does not want to discuss the issues that bother me. She is a fairly orthodox believer and has expressed surprise that I could doubt the historicity of the Book of Mormon, for example. I still attend church for the social interaction, but I have kept my mouth shut in virtually every Sunday School. The story of Balaam and the talking donkey is coming up in a few weeks and I will try to ask if anyone thinks this is a verifiably real story. But I won't push this issue very far.

In some ways I have emotionally disengaged from my wife's emotional state. If she is happy, then I will join her in her any happiness she experiences. But if she is upset over our theological differences, I simply have to leave her to ponder that by herself. This has weirdly worked out and we still actually like each other. It has been an unusually successful experiment simply operating under the assumption that I cannot change how she feels. Instead, we simply have several important goals in common around children, careers, retirement, and non-church interests.

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alas
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by alas » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:06 am

With the right communication skills, you can avoid "conflict" but still solve differences. Conflict has a bad rep, and that is because most people do it all wrong. There are what are called dirty fighting techniques, and just like hitting below the belt is considered unfair, there are verbal blows that are unfair and take the disagreement from simple disagreement into a fight.

I wish I still had the handouts and things I used to use with clients, but let me try to remember as much as I can.

Fair fighting

1. "I statements." These are statements that state how you feel about what the person did, not an accusation of what they did, and not how the other person "made" you feel. So, example, "I feel hurt when you turn to look at other women." Not, "you are emotionally unfaithful because you look at other women."

2. Stay on topic. Often the discussion goes south when feelings are high and other topics are tossed in. Save other things you are angry about for another time.

3. Timing. Pick a discussion time where there are not distraction or having to be somewhere. Set an appointment if you have to. "dear, this evening I would like to talk to you about last nights party. Is after the kids are in bed good for you?"

4. If things get heated, set a time to get back to the discussion. Don't carry on when either of you is hurt, crying, angry.

Dirty fighting techniques.

1. Exaggerating. "You always ignore me when we are out with other couples." (Notice that this is a "you" statement.)

2. Kitchen sinking. Throwing everything at them including the kitchen sink. "Not only do you look at other women and ignore me, you drink too much and tell stupid jokes." You can't solve anything if you try to solve everything.

3. Your mother wears army boots. Unnecessary hurtful things that have no purpose but to wound. Bring in things totally irrelevant or that the other person can't do anything about.

4. Poor timing. Just as they are leaving for work is not a good time to jump full into the disagreement. Often couples get in a pattern where they bring issues up at bad times, then wonder why nothing ever gets settled.

5...and I am drawing a blank. But others are similar. They are really distractions from the main topic.

The point is, avoid things that hurt, stay on topic, one topic at a time, keep things to how you feel about their behavior, and it does not need to be fixed right now. And that last one, yes it is fine to go to bed angry. Better to get some sleep and carry on when you can be rational, that to say something when you are too tired.

My husband and I have a conflict free marriage. But that does not say we never disagree or have our differences. We just know how to settle disagreements without getting into a fight. I think our last fight was like 30 years ago. Seriously, our children swore we never disagreed, because we could resolve disagreements without anger or yelling.

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alas
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by alas » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:25 am

Other dirty fighting techniques

5 stonewalling. Refusing to discuss things. This sounds like what your husband does. But this has to be considered another way of dirty fighting because the disagreement is still there. It never gets resolved and eventually leads to the relationship being dead. Divorce because you fight is no worse than divorce because one person refuses to talk about differences. This is actually one of the biggest causes of divorce, I'd just refusing to discuss. If you refuse to talk about it, you sort of automatically win. It is supper unfair to "win" this way because it does not give the spouse a chance.

My husband say look on line to find more of the dirty fighting techniques.

But discuss them as a couple, and agree that they are unfair. Then when one gets pulled on you, call your partner on it.

So, in the middle of discussing which movie to see, your spouse whines, "we ALWAYS see the chick flick." You stop the conversation and point out that they just exaggerated. Then make your spouse turn it into an "I" statement. "Um...I feel ________________ when we see the movies you choose. This forces him to put his feeling into words rather than just blaming you. Then with than new information, you can look at a movie you would both enjoy, or agree to taking turns picking movies.

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mooseman
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by mooseman » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:50 am

Hi! My names mooseman and im a stonewaller....i guess (thanks alas) so i hope this helps....
I stonewall for two reasons. 1, i dont think what i have to say will be listened to, and 2 nothing good will come of what i say. I know ill hurt my wifes feelings, a fight will happen and ill just end up appolgizing because how i feel and what i want are wrong, aka dont matter to her. So why bother?
You mentioned stressors-faith conflict, terrible job, kids health. They are possibly all co mingled in his mind. Kids needs surgery cause hes a bad PH. Cant quit cause surgery needs insurance, and can the family afford a pay cut? If only he was a little more "worthy" to give a blessing, at least then he could help.....and round it goes.

Hes going to blow his top. Its what happens when emotional stress builds up. It might be a side erruption, directed at your desire for wine. Or at the hopsital for all the forms. When it happens, dont take it personal--the very reason he cant let it out is he values you more than him and doesnt want to hurt or lose you. Second, let him get it out and show you DO care. That you DO value whats there. Let him get past the emotion and then talk. If the wine a conflict, why? He doesnt want people to see.it in the house? Or you at the DABC? The kids will get it? It will sap his castle greyskull priesthood power? Only once he knows hos pov is valued will he see value on a small "conflict" that is about a solution he finds acceptable, at work, at home and at play.
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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alas
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by alas » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:41 pm

mooseman wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:50 am
Hi! My names mooseman and im a stonewaller....i guess (thanks alas) so i hope this helps....
I stonewall for two reasons. 1, i dont think what i have to say will be listened to, and 2 nothing good will come of what i say. I know ill hurt my wifes feelings, a fight will happen and ill just end up appolgizing because how i feel and what i want are wrong, aka dont matter to her. So why bother?
You mentioned stressors-faith conflict, terrible job, kids health. They are possibly all co mingled in his mind. Kids needs surgery cause hes a bad PH. Cant quit cause surgery needs insurance, and can the family afford a pay cut? If only he was a little more "worthy" to give a blessing, at least then he could help.....and round it goes.

Hes going to blow his top. Its what happens when emotional stress builds up. It might be a side erruption, directed at your desire for wine. Or at the hopsital for all the forms. When it happens, dont take it personal--the very reason he cant let it out is he values you more than him and doesnt want to hurt or lose you. Second, let him get it out and show you DO care. That you DO value whats there. Let him get past the emotion and then talk. If the wine a conflict, why? He doesnt want people to see.it in the house? Or you at the DABC? The kids will get it? It will sap his castle greyskull priesthood power? Only once he knows hos pov is valued will he see value on a small "conflict" that is about a solution he finds acceptable, at work, at home and at play.
Mooseman, boy do I understand about stonewalling when you feel you won't be listened to, what you say will cause a fight, and all. Been there done that for about 30 years as far as the church goes.

But there are some "good fightin technique" that I did not mention, and some dirty fighting techniques I left off also. So, one dirty fighting echnique is continuing to bring up things where really you need to agree to disagree. Having the very same fight every week is not productive. I really think religious differences need to be in the agree to disagree catagory. No matter how much you discuss, you are not going to resolve anything. So, bringing it up when all it is going to do is hurt the other person, does not really make you a stonewaller any more than your spouse who refuses to listen to your side. You have just seen the reality that you are not going to get anywhere and so you choose not to hurt your spouse. That is good. I think most couples have these differences that they need to agree to disagree. Politics, religion, those kind of differences.

I don't post my politics on Facebook, because I see no point in fighting about it with people I like, or dislike as the case may be. It is the same thing. Don't get into discussions when there is no chance of anything but a destructive fight.

Stonewalling is really refusing to talk about things because you are angry, so the silent treatment. The kind of conversation that needs to happen, but never does, because your spouse expects you to know already and is angry that you don't. Say you forgot the aniversaries of your first date and your wife is angry but refuses to tell you why. That is stonewalling.

Thoughtful
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by Thoughtful » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:36 am

How are things going Merrie Miss?

I've about driven Spouseman crazy lately with the sex scandals. I've decided to limit myself to giving him only one scandal update per day. Hrs laughed earlier when I asked if he was ready for his scandal update.

Today it was, "I feel strongly we should teach the kids to never confess anything to church leaders, ever. They can confess to God and get right with him, otherwise it's just going to cause you grief to hand your authority off to a priesthood leader." I didn't even say anything about the bishop case. He was a little more relaxed about it.

If I can control myself to one a week, I think his marital satisfaction will go way up. So my goal now is reduce my overall complaineyness, and really choose what to get worked up about. Meaning Trump is off limits too. (Sigh.)

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by MerrieMiss » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:19 am

mooseman wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:50 am
Hi! My names mooseman and im a stonewaller....i guess (thanks alas) so i hope this helps....
I stonewall for two reasons. 1, i dont think what i have to say will be listened to, and 2 nothing good will come of what i say. I know ill hurt my wifes feelings, a fight will happen and ill just end up appolgizing because how i feel and what i want are wrong, aka dont matter to her. So why bother?
Yep, this sums up exactly how I handle everything. I just don't see any point in bringing up anything. When I do I see that he's hurt so I back off, and we're back where we started. I think he just avoids conflict because he really sees it as inherently bad. My parents fought all the time. It wasn't healthy at all, they did it very poorly and used so many of the bad tactics alas mentions. Sometimes as a child I wished my parents fought more but about the things that really mattered. It amuses me how kids can see through the bulls***. And now I'm wading around in it.
mooseman wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:50 am
You mentioned stressors-faith conflict, terrible job, kids health. They are possibly all co mingled in his mind. Kids needs surgery cause hes a bad PH. Cant quit cause surgery needs insurance, and can the family afford a pay cut? If only he was a little more "worthy" to give a blessing, at least then he could help.....and round it goes.
Thanks for helping me see it as he does. As the person who takes care of the kid's emotional and physical needs in a very close and intimate way, it is easy for me to forget that there is a lot of pressure for him to stay in a good job that he hates for insurance purposes because he takes care of all of us financially. He briefly mentioned going back to school this weekend, but I'm not really sure that's a practical option right now.

The priesthood thing is kind of interesting. I'm wondering if it will come up. My husband is a believer but very pragmatic. No priesthood blessings have been mentioned as of yet. I don't know if he's thought about it, or he just doesn't see it as necessary yet. As long as we're avoiding church topics, I haven't brought it up (as it relates to current our family situation.)

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whatififly
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Re: Avoiding conflict

Post by whatififly » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:25 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:19 am
On another note, you are at the worst stage marriages go through. The little kid time is most stressful on marriages. There is very little time for the two of you to talk, so it is important to make time. Date time. Away from the kids time. Adult time. Instead of worrying about how you are keeping things about the church inside and growing apart, look at the bigger picture. The two of you need time together without the kids to stay connected before you even tackle the church issue.
This. I am in the little kids stage too. When DH and I have difficult things to address, the stress of managing the kids exacerbates it. Find some time where you two can really connect without distraction before tackling issues.
“There is freedom waiting for you, on the breezes of the sky, and you ask "What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?” ― Erin Hanson

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