Struggling with MFR - trying to figure out how to make it work w/ kids and us

[jfro18]

I'll try to keep it as short as possible but I know it won't be easy.

I left the church a while back after I couldn't get over polygamy and just really felt uncomfortable with some smaller things, but my wife remained and has become more devout over the years. We were able to survive that by effectively just ignoring it - we just did not talk about church stuff outside of the most small-talk stuff you could imagine and never really got into why I left as I was afraid it would end the marriage. My wife has always been amazing to me even when her family put a lot of pressure on me about church and I truly believe has never measured my worth due to the church. I have always disliked certain parts of church (garments are a big one), but overall it worked as well as it can with a big wedge in your relationship, but kids were always going to be the issue that blew that plan up.

Recently I have been investigating the church more as I am terrified that kids who grow up in the church will almost certainly continue down the set path of mission/temple marriage/etc. I of course found the CES Letter along with other critical sources and just about lost my mind learning about all of these issues with church history that were never taught to me.

Unfortunately I did not find these groups along with that letter, so I made the mistake of talking to my wife without being prepared for it. I wanted to focus on polygamy, and when she got upset I transitioned to other issues I found (book of abraham, blacks, plagiarism, etc)... that of course did not go well as my wife completely retreated.

She agreed to read the CES Letter if I was willing to read the FAIR defenses of these issues, which I agreed. I then spent days reading the letter and FAIR's responses two times and then taking notes on where I thought they had a valid point, where they were gaslighting, and where both sides could claim they were right.

My wife (I believe) spent a very brief time skimming the letter and then accused me of only looking at the bad stuff. That was fair at first, but I really was spending a lot of time constantly going to FAIR to make sure I had both sides of the issues. Regardless, at this point she declared that she doesn't care about historical issues because they were just men who made mistakes, and that she only cares about the Book of Mormon and how she feels reading it. When I asked if she wanted to know if it was true, she said yes, but then immediately shut down any discussions about the issues with it.

So... that's been on and off for over a month now, and she decided last week to go kid-less to church because she knows how I feel about it. The problem is that I know she resents me greatly for it and I am fair certain the ward knows all about it. I never asked for that - I just asked that we try to find a way that we can both expose them to our beliefs for a fair chance to be open minded (honestly that's impossible - we both know it).

I also am having a hard time coming to grips with her not even being willing to acknowledge the issues with the church history as well as the many, many problems with the Book of Mormon itself. I *know* some of these items are on her shelf now, but she is only going to faith promoting sites to research so I don't know if she's even processing it or not. She has also been talking with her sister about it, which is always cringeworthy for so many reasons.

Sorry this was longer than I was aiming for. I just don't know what to do... I have no desire for divorce (I don't *think* she does) and I want to find a way to make it work. I know right now she resents me for keeping kids from church, but she is not wanting to take them because she knows how angry I am at the church for the things they lied about.

I realize every situation is different, and after reading so many stories on here and reddit I know that a lot of people work it out, and those times where the spouse also leaves is usually not an instant thing either. I have my anger towards the church, the inability to find a compromise about kids where we both feel OK, and then my frustration that she doesn't even want to know if it's true.

That said, I know that I am lucky to have her... I think we both know that with regards to church we have both put each other in bad spots. Right now we've had a few days of trying to ignore it which has been OK, but I know we're both thinking about it. I don't know how long I can hope that she opens up about it, but I just don't see it happening which also sucks since I know that some of it bothers her and is clearly new to her.

Again, sorry this is so long... been a rough few months and just not sure how to process it all. I *really* wish I had found this group before I opened my mouth, because I know I did all of that wrong... and there might be no coming back from it as far as having honest conversations about church going forward. I'm far from blameless here - I just had no idea how to approach the conversation and went in unprepared.

Anyway... Thanks for listening. It feels good to get it out there... I know I don't have it as bad as others, so I definitely feel for those who have been dealing with this for longer than me with bad results. I hope we all start finding our own answers soon!

[IT_Veteran]

Something that works well for me has been writing letters. I find it very hard to be open and honest when I know what I’m going to say is likely to hurt the other person. Not letters like the CES letter, not ones that address my issues with the church. Letters that help me explain my feelings.

I’ve been pretty open with me wife of late. I’ve felt the need to tell her that regardless of my feelings toward the church, or hers, I love her just the same. That I’m concerned about our kids. That I worry about them being harmed by teachings in the church before we even know to address them. That it terrifies me that one of our kids could be LGBTQ. Not because there’s anything wrong with that, but because by the time they enter YM/YW, they’re already ashamed of who they are because of what they hear in church.

Your feelings and emotions should be much more important than any particular issues you have with the church. She needs to understand that you have a genuine concern for your kids wellbeing, and that’s where your fear comes from. Similarly, it’s important that you recognize that’s where her fear is coming from too.

Right now, her fear that the kids will follow you out of the church is for the same reason you fear them staying in. That’s a natural tension and hopefully you both can be okay with them coming to their own conclusions. It’s scary as hell to think they might not make the conclusion you believe to be right, but they will make the decision on their own anyway.

[jfro18]

I started a word doc where I would just put my notes in there of things I have researched and what I thought of it. Maybe over the next few months I'll make something of a CES Letter with it that goes into areas the CES Letter doesn't (or Letter For My Wife, etc), but then I also realize my wife will likely never take it seriously which is all the more depressing.

We've been stuck in a cycle where we ignore it for a while and then we try to talk and it ends poorly and then we take a few days and then try to talk again and it just doesn't work. At the end of the day, while she tells me that she wants to know if it's true, she really does not. That's her choice, but on some level I'd respect that choice more if she would just say "No, I don't care if it is not true - I am not going to go down this path with you." At least that's honest with me even if it is lying to herself.

I think that my feelings are all over because I was never taught so many of these issues and spent decades not looking into them because I was told not to, and then once I started falling away from the church we just kind of agreed to leave each other be. It wasn't until being around others talking about how their kids would all go on missions and BYU that I started freaking out... because if he chooses that then so be it, but I also know you are raised in the church to not question anything and to avoid those who would tell you critical things of the church.

So here we are... I have a wife that I truly believe knows deep down the church has serious flaws, but I have no way to reach her. I keep hoping that soon she will just sit down and talk about it, but the pressure from her family will likely be too much for me to ever compete with anyway. Just a lonely feeling to have discovered so much information when you can't even share it with the person you care the most about.

[IT_Veteran]

I started a word doc where I would just put my notes in there of things I have researched and what I thought of it. Maybe over the next few months I'll make something of a CES Letter with it that goes into areas the CES Letter doesn't (or Letter For My Wife, etc), but then I also realize my wife will likely never take it seriously which is all the more depressing.

<snip>

I think that my feelings are all over because I was never taught so many of these issues and spent decades not looking into them because I was told not to, and then once I started falling away from the church we just kind of agreed to leave each other be. It wasn't until being around others talking about how their kids would all go on missions and BYU that I started freaking out... because if he chooses that then so be it, but I also know you are raised in the church to not question anything and to avoid those who would tell you critical things of the church.

Writing your own letter about the issues is good, but it may cause more harm than it helps depending on where your wife is at. My recommendation (take it as seriously as you would any recommendation from an internet stranger) would be to write about your feelings *only*, and avoid the church issues. Not permanently, but to help you and your wife to better understand your feelings.

The letter I wrote to my wife to let her know I was leaving the church was more about my feelings than specific issues. I told her in the letter that I didn't know if I would ever send it or not, but I put the date on it. Writing that letter helped me to better understand myself and where I was at. A few months later I decided to send it. I decided to add a few paragraphs as introduction, especially about why I was sending an email instead of talking face to face, and explained why I hadn't sent it earlier. I then inserted the first letter underneath that, in its entirety, without editing. I decided I wasn't going to change the things I wrote because that's how I felt at the time, warts and all.

Writing has become cathartic to me. It's something that is more for me than it is for her. I share them with her because she wants to understand me better, but I don't always write them for her.

[jfro18]

I agree 100%... after sharing the CES Letter and knowing that she (admittedly) only skimmed it makes me know that sending her my own letter like that would not end much better.

I guess for me it was just about putting my thoughts down for me - it helped me to organize things and then I was also cross-referencing those with FAIR to see if they had explanations that made sense (and my wife's good advice of not just taking every 'Anti-Mormon' position at face value). It also helped me because when my wife and I were talking about issues (not that it was productive), I at least could reference back later to make sure I didn't misspeak or add something I wanted to research further.

But yeah - it's both helpful and harmful to go through sources and take notes... it's helpful because I want to know everything I can now because I'm so angry that I was lied to from the church, but it's harmful in that it doesn't make me feel better to find out more and more of the lies (lately I've been looking at all the changes to the D&C and then the areas where JS took text from the New Testament for BoM quite liberally... not to mention how the Joseph Smith translation was basically ripping off Adam Clarke's teachings and then tossing himself into the Bible because YOLO).

So I guess right now in my mind I am on my own - she claims she doesn't care about any of those issues and doesn't care about the issues with the BoM itself, so until she does I'm just on my own trying to learn about it... I figured a good way to document that would be to take notes and see what I end up with. Right now I doubt she would ever read it, but maybe I can give it to someone else who could be helped by it? I dunno... it's been a little over a month and it's still very raw and angering to me both that I was lied to by church and that my wife doesn't seem to even care about those lies.

[IT_Veteran]

I know that feeling very well. When I first left the church I was not angry or bitter. Shortly after leaving though, I came across the CES Letter. That was two months ago and I'm still feeling angry, hurt, and betrayed by the church. My wife has been pretty understanding of why. I've been clear to her that I will love her whether she stays in the church or leaves it, but that I really think she should have all of the information. She caught me reading the CES letter in bed one night and asked what it was, I told her I didn't think she wanted to read it because it was not faith-affirming, she actually asked me for the link. The church essays have been a safe place for her to go and research. She is feeling betrayed too, after recognizing that the things taught in the essays don't match what we were taught growing up in the church.

Coming here to vent is healthy too. My DW is lurking here; she's signed up but never posted. She reads what I write (hi sweetheart!) but understands that I'm not going to hold back from sharing my feelings here or on Reddit because it's a safe place for me to do so. It's worked pretty well for us so far, but I understand it's not the right recipe for everyone else.

[jfro18]

Thanks

Yeah it sounds fairly similar. It's tough because she found one area where the CES Letter really stretches (when they show passages from BoM vs Late War, I think) and then immediately said the entire letter twists facts without context. And to be fair some quotes are definitely debatable from church leaders due to either context or that those leaders would say the opposite thing later (esp w/ the witnesses, although I think that's not helpful but a problem with their story).

Anyway... it's really hard to convey that there are some real areas where they have lied and where they continue to lie. I know that she *gets* that, but I also know so far she has only read LDS materials that tell you to ignore the critics or explain away serious issues.

It sucks... I definitely view here as a 'safe space' just to talk and vent without feeling like I'm pushing us towards divorce, so that's always a good thing.

We'll see - maybe with a little time she'll start asking questions. For some reason I think I'd feel better even if she kept going but actually went through everything. I just don't understand how you can put *so* much into something and not be willing to do the research on it. I get having that "feeling" when you read the BoM, but as has been demonstrated forever... each religion has that 'feeling' and it's hard to believe that God is going to give it to Catholics or Lutherans if those churches are abominations, right?

[IT_Veteran]

Honestly, my wife started going through the CES letter and, instead of trusting the author, found FAIRMormon (the quasi-official apologetics site). I think that site has done more damage to her testimony than the letter because in nearly every case, they don't answer the question or concern at issue. Instead, they dance around it, and always eventually come down to just having faith because the church says so. I've not seen a convincing argument or explanation for just about anything there.

I see it this way, as do many others. Apologetics start with a conclusion and form an argument around the evidence that gets them there. Critical thinkers examine the evidence and go where the facts take them, to eventually arrive at a conclusion. Most people, if they're being honest with themselves, see that at FAIR and it can be very disappointing to those that really are trying to hold on to a testimony.

[jfro18]

My wife went into it though assuming the CES Letter was wrong, so when they saw FAIR's response immediately concluded CES was wrong.

The funny thing is that the first time I read the CES Letter side-by-side with FAIR's response I was like "Yeah, my wife will never believe the CES letter... FAIR has an answer for everything."

Then I did it a second time, and it became really obvious how FAIR was hitting a LeBron James-esque level of gaslighting. I mean half the time they'd end up on a point that was never mentioned by the CES Letter just to try and close down an argument.

So yeah - I think that when you read both openly you can see how FAIR is being so evasive and dishonest with many big issues, but until that mindset is opened just enough to be willing to hear both sides, it won't matter. Not for me anyway... time will tell I guess.

[slavereeno]

So I guess right now in my mind I am on my own - she claims she doesn't care about any of those issues and doesn't care about the issues with the BoM itself, so until she does I'm just on my own trying to learn about it... I figured a good way to document that would be to take notes and see what I end up with. Right now I doubt she would ever read it, but maybe I can give it to someone else who could be helped by it? I dunno... it's been a little over a month and it's still very raw and angering to me both that I was lied to by church and that my wife doesn't seem to even care about those lies.

I understand what your are feeling. Remember that emotion almost always trumps logic with humans. Even on this side of the belief wagon we are responding emotionally to things. The church takes your identity and then replaces it with their pre-packaged Mormon one. What this means is that when you attack the church, they fell like you are attacking them. IT_Veteran's advice about expressing your feelings rather than trying to show the truth about the church is good advice IMHO. The church has spent a lot of time and energy establishing an "us versus them" mentality, so if you are no with the "us" then you are against us. Its a no-win situation and its why there are so few who leave.

I think there are some stages to this, when you lose your Mormon identity you glom onto another ex-mormon or NOM or whatever identity that is also not yours, at least at first. Eventually, I think many move on to a new identity that is uniquely theirs, but its not easy.

The CES Letter is great, it was the first comprehensive thing about the church I read outside of correlated materials. Its been a little over a year and even though I haven't done tons of research I have come to the conclusion that it is sometimes sophomoric as far as real issues with the church are concerned. Not to say it doesn't have value, it does, but its certainly only a brief introduction to this stuff. Also, there is a FAIR response to the CES Letter and a rebuttal by JR to the FAIR response, he is doing like you are and evaluating his and their responses.

I dunno a mind has to be ready to accept this transition, its difficult if not impossible to push someone out if they aren't ready.

[IT_Veteran]

The CES Letter is great, it was the first comprehensive thing about the church I read outside of correlated materials. Its been a little over a year and even though I haven't done tons of research I have come to the conclusion that it is sometimes sophomoric as far as real issues with the church are concerned.

Same here. Its only been a couple of months ago for me. After diving in on a couple of the issues and researching the church's sources, the rebuttals, primary documents, etc. I gave up on it. I had already reached a point where I knew it wasn't true, had no interest in going back to the church, and was just really making myself crazy. I'm still looking for that new identity, TBH. It's just one of those things that will take time. I'm starting to feel less angry about things, but I'm still worried about my wife and kids staying in it. I am still far more distracted by all of this than I should be.

[alas]

I get the feeling that when your wife says she wants to know whether it is true or not, she really only wants to know that it is true. A believer can say they want to know whether or not something is true, but really they have already decided and just want confirmation that they are right, it is all true.

She has said that the things that bother you so much do not bother her. I think you should taker her word on this and stop trying to get her to change. Often when people hear arguments against something they believe, it only makes them believe more. They dig in their heals, because really cognitive dissonance hurts, and they want to avoid that hurt. So, from a psychological standpoint, the more you try to change her, the more she will resist. She has to want to change what she believes, and I see lots of evidence in what you are saying that indicates to me that she does not want to change what she believes.

I agree with others, that instead of giving her evidence that the church is wrong, that you just tell her how you feel. Something to the effect that, " I was taught X all the while I was growing up, now I see evidence that there is so much more to the story and the whole thing leaves me feeling angry and betrayed, like I was lied to. Stay kind of vague about what X is, because she only needs a general idea of what, but she needs a clear idea of how you are feeling. This makes you more vulnerable because it is easier for most of us, maybe especially men, to talk about facts rather than feelings. She doesn't need or want to know the facts, but she does need to see that you are hurt by the church pretending to be more than it really is. She needs to understand the disillusionment and anger you feel.

[jfro18]

Thanks for the advice from you all - it helps.

Last time we talked was Saturday and I told her I would not bring up the church again until she was ready, and that until she told me she was wanting to talk I am going to keep it to myself. I am going to honor that because I think we said most of what we needed to say, and if what I told her did not ring any bells, she is not ready to hear it. Like I said - I keep hoping one day she will be, but I am doubtful.

I have expressed my feelings about how I feel lied to and that I am angry that they continue to lie, but she tends to fall back that she wishes that I had read the BoM more often and that I had a better testimony, so clearly my feelings are being rebutted with 'you just didn't believe as much so you don't get it.' Nothing you can really reply to that with... and I've already mentioned that the 'testimony' I had I now believe was me telling myself I believed it, and when I did that then I got that comforting feeling.

My biggest fear is that she will dig in more, she will resent me for now going completely alone, and this is just going to continue to bubble until it completely collapses. I really think she understands my fear about bringing kids from birth and then knowing they're not going to be as open minded about church, but I also don't think that helps the feelings that come with no longer bringing them and knowing how I feel.

We'll see. I know I need to step back from his, but I am learning more and more and while it drives me crazy, it also makes me want to keep going to see what else was hidden from church members all these years. Going through the D&C changes and BoM plagiarism from the Bible (esp New Testament) is just insane to me... but again, FAIR is there to deflect and distract from the actual points being made.

[jfro18]

I should also add that I continually kick myself for being so flustered when I first brought it up. I just didnt know about these groups, saw all the info out there about the church that was never taught to me, and freaked out about the idea of missing my kid's wedding or time on a mission because of it.

I've told my wife a few times I wish I had been more composed when we first talked about it and she says it wouldn't have mattered so why worry about it, but I have to think that it would have at least been a much calmer talk even if she still wasn't ready to really get into the details with me.

Either way - it's just another thing to kick around my head during the day when thinking about everything...

[IT_Veteran]

I just listened to Mormon Stories 717-720 the other day and they talked a bit about this. He left the church first and she loved him, but didn’t want to follow him out of the church, seems pretty similar in attitude to what you describe.

When he deployed, it gave her the opportunity to really search and look at the sources without feeling pressured by him.

They and their kids are all out now, mostly because she had the space to research without him exerting any pressure or influence on her about it. It was an important lesson for me.

[jfro18]

I'll have to listen to that this week.

At this point I said I won't bring it up and I'll wait for her, so that's what I'm going to do. I really hope at some point she is willing to do it, but of course I also feel anxious because I know she is talking to people at church and likely reinforcing those views with only church-approved propaganda... I mean materials. It's so hard to break through that wall and I feel like the longer I wait the more reinforced it gets, but I promised I'd give her space and that is what I'm going to do.

[Reuben]

I'll have to listen to that this week.

At this point I said I won't bring it up and I'll wait for her, so that's what I'm going to do. I really hope at some point she is willing to do it, but of course I also feel anxious because I know she is talking to people at church and likely reinforcing those views with only church-approved propaganda... I mean materials. It's so hard to break through that wall and I feel like the longer I wait the more reinforced it gets, but I promised I'd give her space and that is what I'm going to do.

It's actually the opposite: if you try too hard to break through the wall, and that's all you do, she builds it up.

Psychology time!

Most Mormons get a ridiculous amount of self-esteem from identifying as Mormons. Humans generally get a lot of self-esteem from belonging to groups, but Mormonism dials the benefit up to 11 with "one true church" and "us vs. the wicked world" narratives. This would actually be individually healthy... except that the self-esteem increase is unstable. Almost everyone knows that there are reasons to doubt, and that the rest of the world isn't on board with Mormonism being superior.

Now here's the most important bit. Humans aggressively defend high but unstable self-esteem against any perceived threat. Keep in mind that to a human, a threat to emotional well-being is just as salient as a threat to physical well-being.

That's the explanation for the reaction to President Monson's NYT obituary. It's why Mormons deceive themselves about their own history. It's why presenting counterevidence causes them to entrench.

First, I agree with everyone who says to back off on the history and emphasize your reactions. If you associate yourself too much with threats, you become a threat in her mind, whether she consciously chooses to regard you that way or not. This is the stuff of old, deep instinct.

In fact, make a point of bringing up specific, good things about the church to try to undo any fear conditioning that's already taken place. There are plenty.

Second, here's a general rule: when presenting counterevidence tears down the recipient's self-esteem, make up for it in other ways. Her relationship with you is almost certainly another source of self-esteem. Be vulnerable with her to build intimacy, which makes the relationship strong and deep. Your opinion of her is probably another source. Make sure she knows that it's in the stratosphere. Her appearance might be another one; if so, compliment her on it. Her competence at something might be another; notice it or help her with it. Her relationship with God, apart from the church, might be another; appreciate that and help her build it. How she always makes moral choices might be another; notice that. Maybe fulfilling what she feels is her life's purpose is another; help her do it. Her identities as a member of other groups (ethnic, political, work, volunteer, your own family) are definitely sources of self-esteem, so emphasize the ones she regards as most worthy or help her join one if she's always wanted to. Figure out what makes her feel like a worthy human being, and turn those dials so that the sum goes up way past 11.

And this isn't just so she'll eventually read the CES letter. It's not empty flattery. If you can do it, you'll have done a lot of what it takes to have an amazing relationship. She could feel like a queen because of you, and a queen can handle anything.

[jfro18]

Thanks!

I'm going to work hard on doing just that and have been since. I think situations like these make you realize that you take each other for granted.

Of course since we talked last week we haven't really talked much at all about anything. Mostly recaps of our days and then we both have stuff to do @ night and then sleep... I asked last night how she was doing and she just said she needed time, and I mentioned I felt uneasy about everything since I know we're in a rough spot. I did not get into church stuff whatsoever - just focusing on us as we agreed I would not bring up church stuff again and she can let me know if she's ever ready for that.

It's been ~6 days since we last talked (not that it went particularly well) and it feels like a month. Maybe the quick conversation last night will help, but this morning gave me the impression it did not.

We'll see... I know a lot of people get through it just fine, so I have to hope we're in that same boat.

[RubinHighlander]

Recently I have been investigating the church more as I am terrified that kids who grow up in the church will almost certainly continue down the set path of mission/temple marriage/etc.

From my experience and those of my friends, I wouldn't worry too much about your kids in terms of the church. I would love them and be a better father an husband that you've were before when you went to church. This should overcome any of the BS the church lays on them. They will have cogdis over it where your DW attends and you don't. There will also be the struggle of supporting them in their involvement, but I think if you back off worry about their indoctrination and supporting your DW that might prove that your altruism does not have any dependency on your church attendence or lack of belief. The cogdis they will have with your DW telling them one thing and you not doing it (but not feeding them negative thoughts and feelings on those topics) will likely work to them not buying into the LDS BS when they become young adults. There's so much information available today, that if you can just teach them critical thinking skills and independence they will slough off the church much easier than we did.

My own experience was that I had three kids and a cheating spouse that eventually divorced me. Yup, I was the poor church broke sucker that forgave her 70 times 7 and grabbed on to the church and dogma to get me through that pain. But when I remarried I began to experience and see a lot of BS in the church that really bothered me. One was that my kids were easily swayed out of the church by my X. The other was that I became a 2nd class broken member because I was divorced. Even 2nd marriage melded families were 2nd class in the church, at least in the wards I was in, unless your spouse died. Basically melded families seem to be perceived as the ones that couldn't quite keep satan out of their lives, flawed in some way.

So my cogdis was my kids leaving the church, inspite of all my efforts to stay worthy. I just felt broken, sitting there listening to all the great families getup and say how blessed they were to send their sons and daughters on missions, etc. I'd never see those events. Later I found friends and family finding out the church was BS and that caused enough cogdis for me to start my own investigation. About a year later I was finally free of the church mentally, but continue to support my DW. It was really hard on her, but my sincerity and effort to support her and keep going to church and my change in becoming a better husband and father without beliving the church, was enough to help her start her own investigation and eventually come to the same conclusion. Now my kids were older, so that made it much easier on our family. Our youngest was 15 and she was more than happy not to have to go to church anymore. Here experience there was really bad, with bullying by other good church going girls.

Back to your kids, here's what I would worry about: Talk to your DW about protecting your kids. Pull up all those stories on http://protectldschildren.org/ and discuss with her that you two should decide how your children will interact with male church leadership. I would hope she would be onboard with this. There are others here that were ahead of their time and years ago, made it clear with their local leaders that their kids would not be interviewed alone with any leader or any interview without their permission. You and your DW could have that discussion for the protection of your children. Also ask DW if your stake has it mandatory that there are always two instructors in all classes with the kids. Try to bring this topic to DW not in a accusatory way, but that it's been a weighing on you that your children are safe.

So that's a nutshell version. Welcome to the best faith transition board on the Web and good luck in your journey!

[Thoughtful]

I have the same fear, that my kids will get sucked in to it all, even though my teens are both fed up with some aspects of it. My little one is one that buys in so hard to things. I believe she will eventually have an OCD diagnosis and I've been down that road with one of my other kids. It does not make living the gospel healthy at all, but harder for them to let go of. Good luck to you. I think the advice you've been given to be the best dad you can be and let them know you by your fruits is great advice. I am trying to be a better mom. I think I'm already a decent parent, but I want to be so real, genuine, loving and safe for them that they cannot believe anything the church throws their way about people who leave. Good luck-- you are not alone.