Going back

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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mooseman
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Going back

Post by mooseman » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:23 pm

After everything that happened in 2015-16, I thought we were out. My wife had known I was unhappy at church for a while, and watching one of her shows lead to questions about Hoffman, and the can of worms was open. We didn't get into everything, but enough she doesn't believe in the truth claims anymore. Her activity tapered off, and then I learned of her affair, leading to a her disfellowship and many, many, fights as you can imagine.

This year of hell is almost over, and last night she asked what I thought of her getting active again, talking about how she needs to be "her own person". She admits it's "hard" to sit there and keep her mouth shut when she knows what they are saying is wrong, but life made "so much more sense" when she believed. I told her she needs to do whatever she needs to, but I'm honestly mixed on how I feel.

On the one hand, I want to say this is still part of her FT-morning what she's lost and trying to refind it. On the other, it does feel a bit like blaming the affair on our apostacizing, or worse looking for another wedge to push us back apart as divorce still seems very much an elephant in the room. I'm not sure how to approach this without becoming just that--I can see me "putting my foot down" and driving her to the church and us to divorce, and I can see me supporting her in this and inviting drama that will push us to thr same point. I've told her the my top concern is for her to be happy, with or without me and she insist she wants "us" but I'm not seeing a road through this as shaky as we are right now.
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Going back

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:17 pm

That must have been very tough on both of you, and tough for you to share. With all the challenges of a TBM wife, that's one I would have a really difficult time staying together on. It's bad enough with differing religous viewpoints without the extra baggage that an affair brings. I'm not sure how much she can blame "apostasy" on that, though. Sounds like there's a lot more to drill down on with what's going on than that - have you both considered therapy, maybe of the non-LDS variety? Can't even imagine what you're going through, and you have my empathy and internet hugs.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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mooseman
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Re: Going back

Post by mooseman » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Thank you, and yes we've been seeing a non lds (I think) counselor for over a year now, both together and individually. Mostly we talk about the trying to get trust back,and have her take more responsibility/not demand her way all the time like it's been for the 17 years we've been married. We are making progress, I guess, but I am scared resentment is building, and this maybe a back handed, passive aggressive way to "prove" she's still in control of the relationship.

Luckily (I guess) she hasn't had any contact with the bf since March, but I'm scared this "desire" to go back might be another way of trying to push me away, and if it's not how it's going to fuether complicate life. (I say luckily, because she knows further contact with him and we're done)
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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alas
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Re: Going back

Post by alas » Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:37 am

By going back to church, does she mean just her, or both of you?

I see several possibilities depending on exactly what she means and why. If she means both of you, she may be trying to control the relationship. That would be saying, "I need_______ so you have to_______" which is controlling you. If she means that she needs something, and is thinking church for only her might be it, then it may be an attempt to take more responsibility for her own needs. If she means both of you because she wants the something in common that church used to give you both, then it may be a valid need you can compromise on.

So, my first suggestion would be to get more information on exactly what she wants to accomplish going forward. It can't be just based on nostalgia for the past when she believed because that is gone. I have never found anyone to go back to full belief after learning too much history.

Once you know what she wants to accomplish, then together you can discuss the best way to accomplish what she is wanting. Maybe a new church for both of you. Maybe a new church for just her. Maybe some other social outlet. Maybe back to nuanced believing for her and cafeteria Mormonism.

If she is going to learn not to demand her way all the time, then you need to learn some compromise and negotiating skills as well as finding out what she really wants by demanding her own way. Her motivation for always demanding her own way, she may feel insecure and you giving her what she wants proves you love her, and that would say you also need to find better way of showing her you love her.

But I am just making guesses from a few words written on an Internet forum, and that is a lousy way to do marital counseling, so if things don't feel like they fit ignore what I have said.

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EternityIsNow
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Re: Going back

Post by EternityIsNow » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:41 pm

mooseman wrote:Ashe asked what I thought of her getting active again, talking about how she needs to be "her own person".
...
I've told her the my top concern is for her to be happy, with or without me and she insist she wants "us" but I'm not seeing a road through this as shaky as we are right now.
That is a charitable top concern on your part. What do YOU need at this point?

Also, is her top concern in the relationship for YOU to be happy? If not, you may be in a power-based, one-down relationship with her (see: http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/relationships.htm), perhaps you have already gone over this with the counselor. But your post leads me to wonder if your relationship lacks symmetry (read that article for explanation). Mormonism gives lip service to balanced partnerships in marriage, but the culture and doctrines heavily promote asymetrical, power-based relationships. Just think of the authority chain in the priesthood and also in callings, and how that influences the thinking of the members. I think many LDS women subconsciously are fighting against this asymmetry (and I agree with that, they should all be fighting against authoritarian patriarchy).

I would ask her what she wants out of going active again, what need would that fulfill. Get her to work through the logic completely, what would happen if you two went active again. How would that really affect your marriage?

There is always the possibility of an ulterior motive, but she may just be trying to decide how to end her probation time with the church in a way that makes the pain worthwhile, by finding a way to salvage the relationship. I agree with the above comment that finding another social group or another church may be good, but only if this will not introduce new problems in the relationship.

Sometimes life just gives us challenges, this sounds like a doozy. In my experience, people seek all types of explanations for their pain, and where close relationships are concerned, have a hard time seeing clearly what is wrong. The church, the affair, the activity/inactivity, the arguments, are all symptoms. What is the real problem? I have seen cases where the real problem is actually medical, an undiagnosed mental illness, for example, but the people involved blame everything else in sight, bad parents, bad marriage, bad job, bad friends, etc. When they face the reality of their mental health problem and get that treated or learn to compensate, suddenly the other problems become less urgent, some just fade away. Humans are strange, superstitious creatures, we really have a hard time when causes of our problems are not clear. I wish you luck, not an easy situation to figure out.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Going back

Post by Red Ryder » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:42 am

The best advice is above. Take that seriously. :D

If it was me given the situation, I would probably just leave and move forward with time focused on myself. I say this because I wouldn't be able to handle inserting the church back into the mix. Not when the church is going to tell her she's a sinner and then expect her to jump through the hoops of repentance. That stuff is emotionally damaging and would easily trickle down to me the unbeliever. I'm only projecting my self into this but what if suddenly she becomes the self righteous repenting mormon and you take the brunt of it all because you're the unbelieving spouse? Then the church becomes the "other lover" and I'm still the worthless spouse.

Again just me asking myself what I would do.

Some things are worth fighting for and working hard to make better. Only you can decide.
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Newme
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Re: Going back

Post by Newme » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:40 pm

I don't know what to say other than I hope some good comes out of all of this, especially for the sake of children (guessing there are).

If you believe in prayer, now's a good time to invest in that - to get guidance.

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Stig
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Re: Going back

Post by Stig » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:32 am

Red Ryder wrote:The best advice is above. Take that seriously. :D

If it was me given the situation, I would probably just leave and move forward with time focused on myself. I say this because I wouldn't be able to handle inserting the church back into the mix. Not when the church is going to tell her she's a sinner and then expect her to jump through the hoops of repentance. That stuff is emotionally damaging and would easily trickle down to me the unbeliever. I'm only projecting my self into this but what if suddenly she becomes the self righteous repenting mormon and you take the brunt of it all because you're the unbelieving spouse? Then the church becomes the "other lover" and I'm still the worthless spouse.

Again just me asking myself what I would do.

Some things are worth fighting for and working hard to make better. Only you can decide.
I echo this sentiment. At some point, moving in completely different directions may just be too much to handle. I, for one, am wrestling with that right now.
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“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

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mooseman
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Re: Going back

Post by mooseman » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:22 am

Thank you all for the suggestions and support. So far, her "efforts" to go back have just been talk, she even shrugged off my suggestion of going to church on Christmas. But last night, we had a bit of a fight about it. We were discussing various aspects of how the affair has impacted our year, and she mentioned that I've "not been happy for a while" pegging my unhappiness back to the start of my FC three years ago, and that if I "just went back to church, (she's) sure I'd be happier again. life was so much simpler when we were active!"
I tried my best, but she could tell I was upset as I explained 1) the feelings that we all know going through a FC and how they take a couple years to settle, and just as I was getting comfortable again with it 2) she had her affair, which was the FC tenfold. I explained I do have answers--they aren't faith affirming ones, and that is why I have no plans on going back. That if SHE wants to, she thinks their are answers for her fine, she can do just that but she needs to stop blaming me for her not going since I'm not even HOME on Sunday. After all, she's the one that shot down the idea of going to Christmas services, not me. I mentioned that every time this topic comes up I feel like she in blaming me for her affair--that, if I hadn't filled her head with doubt she wouldn't have strayed. (she insist that's not what she's trying to do/imply.) Overall, I don't think she'll actually go back--I think she's suffering from her own FC, but it seems more and more "going separate ways" might work out best.
Anyway, thought I'd give an update and thank you all for your support and suggestions.
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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Newme
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Re: Going back

Post by Newme » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:44 pm

mooseman wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:22 am
I mentioned that every time this topic comes up I feel like she in blaming me for her affair--that, if I hadn't filled her head with doubt she wouldn't have strayed. (she insist that's not what she's trying to do/imply.)
I imagine it's common when we know we've really screwed up, to try to shift the blame - to some extent.
Or could it be you feel unwarranted shame for your and her faith crisis's? At times - especially in the beginning, I felt that way a bit.
Either way, I hope you don't accept any unwarranted responsibility.
I know it can make life much less enjoyable to live with someone who shifts blame a lot - like walking on egg shells.
I hope the best for you.

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Zack Tacorin Dos
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Re: Going back

Post by Zack Tacorin Dos » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:58 am

Hey MooseMan,

I have no advice to offer. I just want to let you know I'm one more NOM rooting for you.

Best wishes,
Zack

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deacon blues
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Re: Going back

Post by deacon blues » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:47 pm

Two more NOM's rooting for you. You deserve a break.........
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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