Scripture and prayer time

[Vlad the Emailer]

I've acknowledged that my fellow NOM's are unquestionably more tolerant than me regarding things churchy, but now DW has reintroduced one of the trials of my unbelieving patience so I'll come to the well of your wisdom once again.

The nightly scripture and prayer business wouldn't be quite as irksome if she didn't insist that I, as the one that presides in the home (yeah, right ) not only do my best to make sure scripture and prayer time happens, but perform vastly important duties like choosing who starts reading and who gives the prayer.

Not only that, but respect for my opinions about what constitutes scripture has clearly gone out the window as are we busily reading through that incredibly overwordy piece of religious fiction called the BoM.

I realize that, as much as anything else, this situation constitutes a power struggle between DW and myself.

How do you navigate stuff like this?

I do my best to focus on the good (such as the positive vibes of expressing gratitude in a prayer), but I already hate the mind f*** (I know, I need a better phrase for that) of Mormon indoctrination at church (I'm there about half the time), and I certainly resent having it reintroduced every evening at home!

Like I just saw Red Ryder suggest in another thread, possibly instead of trying not to rock the boat for years it might have been best had I laid it all out in the beginning and let the divorce papers fall, if, and where they may. But I didn't and I feel too old and lazy now for what that would likely entail.

[MerrieMiss]

I don’t know about the scripture reading, since my TBM husband hasn’t opened his scriptures in ten years (back when I decided we’d read together and it lasted about a month.) In fact, I don’t think he even knows where his scriptures are. (They’re behind some other books on the bookshelf covered in a pile of dust).

Regarding prayer. When our oldest started praying I was pushing for him to just say whatever a three-year old would say and focus on giving thanks. DH objected and taught our son a rote LDS prayer. It grated on me for years. I hated hearing him say it. When our kid turned five and was still saying the rote prayer DH looked at me for help, and I’ve coached our son on giving thanks. That’s it. Just give thanks. Sometimes it’s, “Thanks for picking up sticks in the park.” Or “I really like my bike.” Or “I like kiwis, they’re my favorite.” It’s so much better than that awful, rote LDS prayer - blessing everyone, helping us to be good, and whatever else.

I just focus on gratitude. After all, isn’t that what God would want most from us? Not gimme gimme all the time? I look at prayer as a ritual that creates time each day to focus on gratitude. I happen to have been born LDS, so this is the ritual my family uses. Maybe preside sometime and choose yourself to teach the importance of gratitude and prayer using approved and carefully selected quotes so your lesson is properly sanctioned by LDS standards.

If you have to choose someone for prayers and scripture study, why not pull names out of a hat? Use a die? Make it random so it isn’t a choice. Make a chore wheel (I mean, FHE wheel!). “Mike, you took out the garbage (prayed) last night so now it’s Sarah’s turn.”

Anyway, I’m sorry. I used to wish my husband would preside, and now I thank my lucky stars he doesn’t. My kids are still young enough they fight over who prays and scripture study doesn’t happen, so win-win.

[alas]

This is touching on one of my pet peeves. The idea that the man is supposed to preside, so the wife nags and forces him to "lead the family." Just who wears the pants in the family when the wife keeps telling her husband, "call on someone for prayer" "lead us in scripture study." The wife is the controlling boss in the family bossing her poor husband into his assigned role as figure head. Only the Mormon church could set women up to boss their husbands into being the family patriarch.

Some women whine about how they are told in the temple that they are to "hearken" but their husband uses that to rule the family with an iron fist, while other women try to force their husband into being more religious by forcing him to pretend to be a real head of the family, meanwhile the wife rules with an iron fist.

If the church taught equality and respect rather than this artificial assigned role, maybe the bossy husband and bossy wife might see the disrespect and unrighteousness of their trying to control the other person.

So, how do you handle you wife presiding over you to make you preside???

Well, you could sit her down and explain that when she tells you what to do (in order to "preside" and how to do it, she is really the one presiding, and you don't like it and it just makes you not want to participate at all. Define preside as what it really means, not just being ordered to call on someone for prayer, but leadership. Then, when she is humbled like a good Mormon wife and learns how to hearken, then be ready to step in with what you would rather do. Maybe rather than read scriptures (because neither you nor kiddos enjoy it. Maybe a substitute could be FHE, or reading good literature that teaches good morals. Then propose a way to rotate the person who conducts to "teach the kids leadership skills" and use one of those rotating things that shows who conducts, who prays, who gives the lesson, who has refreshments. Then sit back and enjoy watching your kiddos give lessons and to help them make refreshments. When you are in charge of the lesson, you can NOM it up.

Really, you should have equal say in things like family religious activities. She should not be allowed to dictate, "we are going to read scriptures whether you like it or not, and by the way, you have to pretend to be in charge of what I just ordered you to do."

[Snowdrop]

It seems to me that "presiding" within families as portrayed in church culture is really good at a few things; passing the buck when it comes to familial responsibility, laying blame, and making men feel horribly guilty. I don't think that it's healthy.

A church phrase that I've been using lately to smooth marital relations is "equally yoked." It makes me just as responsible as my spouse for shaping the world view of our children. It allows us both to "preside" over family gatherings such as mealtimes and our bedtime ritual. Perhaps you could use the phrase equally yoked to get your wife to alternate nights or weeks with you? I also second the idea of rotating turns for prayer. It makes at least that portion a little easier.

Good luck!

[Red Ryder]

Uhgggg!

This has been the biggest source of fights. She whines I don't preside so then I preside by delegating to her and it stops. Ha ha. I'm laughing typing that. But seriously, the nightly scripture reading only lasts about three days because were all too busy in the evenings. I just shake my head at the BOM. It's the ramblings of a man with his head in a hat.

When she digs in I know it won't last long. The kids are allies in distracting mom from church stuff. They've even gone as far as deleting calendar reminders off of her phone.

One other suggestion is to pick a better book to read with the kids. Then each night, strategically spend more time reading the better book. Slowly you'll see the scriptures disappear while the fun family reading time continues. Find joy in that. Not something done to check the Mormon box.

I've found substitution is the best form of medicine. Monday nights have turned into family fun night and we haven't had FHE in two years. See what I've done there?

[Fifi de la Vergne]

the Book of Mormon. . .the ramblings of a man with his head in a hat.

Hilarious. Could someone please make a meme of this?

[hiding in plain sight]

I realize that, as much as anything else, this situation constitutes a power struggle between DW and myself.

How do you navigate stuff like this?

My heart is with you on this one.

For me and my TBM wife, we went through 2 years of kind of enduring each other when it came to faith. After one explosive argument, which was rare, she bared her heart and explain that at the core of it she just wanted to have a home where faith could exist. She wasn't demanding that I return to a belief that the church was true. She wasn't demanding that I unknow the things that I now know. She just wanted a house of faith. And to her that includes prayer, inspirational stories, and scriptures.

I recognized that this was a gift that I could give to my wife. So I did lead out in us reading the BOM. We would read 4 pages a night. I would instigate it. It actually made me feel good that I could do something kind to my wife and not feel that I was now somehow making her think that I was somehow reconverted.

We also still pray together. But I still like prayer and find inspiration in it, so that doesn't go against my grain.

Good luck in how you approach this. But I took prayer and scripture study as an opportunity to give my wife what she most desired. A house of faith.

YMMV.

[Vlad the Emailer]

Thanks all, for these very helpful comments.

I can see myself using "equally yoked" one of these days soon, although I can imagine she'll come up with her having done her part by being the only one that cares to make sure the kids ever even make to church at all.

Yes, often in the past this has been about a three night experience for us as well and then it goes by the wayside, but that's part of the reason she is indeed, digging in. Still, it can't go away soon enough for me, which she knows, and which will earn me all, or at least a strong part of, the blame for said failure. Ah, the joys of living in dysfunction junction.

Anyway, lots of good ideas here. Thanks again for your help. NOMs are an incredible resource in navigating this journey!

[Deepthinker]

Uhgggg!

This has been the biggest source of fights. She whines I don't preside so then I preside by delegating to her and it stops. Ha ha. I'm laughing typing that. But seriously, the nightly scripture reading only lasts about three days because were all too busy in the evenings. I just shake my head at the BOM. It's the ramblings of a man with his head in a hat.

When she digs in I know it won't last long. The kids are allies in distracting mom from church stuff. They've even gone as far as deleting calendar reminders off of her phone.

One other suggestion is to pick a better book to read with the kids. Then each night, strategically spend more time reading the better book. Slowly you'll see the scriptures disappear while the fun family reading time continues. Find joy in that. Not something done to check the Mormon box.

I've found substitution is the best form of medicine. Monday nights have turned into family fun night and we haven't had FHE in two years. See what I've done there?

Very similar experience for me. One of the things that bothers me as well is that she expects me to call everyone into the family room. I have to go find out where everyone is, unplug their earphones, and tell them to come to the family room for scriptures and prayers while DW waits.

It was very difficult for me to read the scriptures after my faith transition. I was listening to My Book of Mormon podcast at the time which is a hilarious reading of a non-Mormon, pointing out all the silliness in it. It was hard to get through that time. Since then, I just "zone out" while we're reading. That works most of the time except when DW asks me to explain a particular scripture. She's learning more and more that she doesn't want me express my thoughts on scriptures.

I really like the substitution method. I might have to try that.

[LSOF]

the Book of Mormon. . .the ramblings of a man with his head in a hat.

Hilarious. Could someone please make a meme of this?

Here you are.

[Just This Guy]

I always hated evening scripture study. There were way too many distractions.

One idea Vlad is to go ahead and do it. Not only do it, but do it all out. By forcing everyone to take time out of their evening when they are already tired and cranky, everyone will get extra "enjoyment" from your time. Maybe even read from both the BOM and the NT each evening. The more you can make this a core for everyone to do, the better. The whole idea here is to let it fail on its own merits. If it is a major pain, then your DW will loose interest and eventually you can stop it to make her happy. Best thing it was her idea to start and it will be her idea to stop.

[RubinHighlander]

Not only do it, but do it all out. By forcing everyone to take time out of their evening when they are already tired and cranky, everyone will get extra "enjoyment" from your time.

Upvote for this one. It's like reverse psychology. Dig into 3rd Nephi and the olive tree allegory; numb their minds so much their dogma will be barking for mercy!

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

My wife insists on morning scripture study with our young children. The last time we went through the book of mormon, I started reading from the online annotated 1830 version from the book of mormon origins project. http://www.bookofmormonorigins.com/
I pointed out ALL the KJV borrowings and contemporary 19th century parallel materials as we went along. The result of this exercise was that we switched to reading the new testament.

Regarding prayer routines, I retain the power to designate prayers and often call on the children who I know will pray the shortest vain repetition based prayers to just get it done as fast as possible. The most awkward is couples prayer before bed where my wife insists on saying the longest prayers in history where I often fall asleep during them. Afterwards the expectation still exists where I should be saying personal prayer so I often just meditate or count in my head an arbitrary amount before going to sleep. ALL our prayers are very repetitive with the same phrases and wording every time it seems. I'm just playing along to get along.

[document]

In my beginnings of NOM, I was out mentally while my then-wife was still very much in. Our compromise was reading the New Testament.