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Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:54 am
by græy
Its been a crazy few weeks and I need a place to let some of it out for a bit.

I had a relatively minor out-patient surgery mid-last week, that in an of itself isn't too much to worry about, but it happened in the middle of an otherwise stressful work week.

In addition to that, I mentioned in another post that I had a job interview last week. It ended up going very well, but I was apparently much more stressed about it than even I thought I was.

Queue Fast Sunday where I'm on tap to conduct sacrament meeting, including a brief intro testimony. I really HATE doing those. I can't in good conscience give the standard "I know its true!" testimony. So I usually end up share some verse about love or forgiveness from the NT and giving and quick anecdotal experience.

This week, I had something similar cooked up in my brain. But as I stood there, I got to the end of my few thoughts and suddenly I wanted to tell my wife how grateful I am for her continued support and encouragement through recent events (i.e. this stupid WC meeting.(NOM), the surgery, and my interview). As I proceeded to say just that a wall of exhaustion, stress, and emotion hit me simultaneously in the face and back of the head. I found myself struggling (and TBH failing) to not cry.

I talked about not only my wife, but my kids. Seeing them smile, and be confident in who they are, that they are loved. I talked about trials, and being kind to each other because everyone is struggling with something. I reiterated that life is hard, but I'm grateful for and love my family. I said some other stuff, but I don't really remember what it was now.

I wrapped up, turned time over to the other members, grabbed a tissue and sat down. It was, somewhat embarrassing, and I am still a little confused about where it came from.

The SP 2nd counselor (who I consider a good friend) was sitting next to me on the stand. As I sat down he leaned over and just said "Thank you." :?:

After church, my wife asked me where that came from as well. I had no answer. She asked me what she should say when people asked her what was going on, or if we are ok. I reassured her that no one would ask. To my knowledge, no one has.

Stay tuned for part 2.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:52 am
by Fifi de la Vergne
Hugs. Sometimes it all just gets to be too much to carry inside. I'm glad we can be here for you to vent to.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:50 am
by græy
Part 2. The job.

The out-of-state job interview went well. They made me an offer, and while it is a slight raise in base salary, due to higher taxes and medical deductibles, it is likely that I'd be losing some money each month on the deal. It is also a MUCH smaller company than I've ever worked for before, which makes me a bit nervous. If anyone has any advice for making counter offers, I'm very open to it.

So, we've been discussing moving. The move would put us back in DW's home state. She is very excited about the possibility and noticeably depressed when she starts to think it might not happen. I am stuck in the middle, struggling to convince myself to leave a very stable job for the unknown while on the other hand excited about new possibilities.

It has led to some very interesting and sometimes heated discussions between us. She insists she'd be happy if we stay. But at the same time she complains year-round about the climate where we live now, and even though we've been here for more than a decade she laments that upgrading to a slightly bigger house (sisters don't want to share rooms with brothers forever, it seems) in this city means we'd be "permanent" residents, which makes her sad.

Whenever we try to talk about all of it, she insists that whatever I'm feeling in that moment (whether its pro-moving or pro-staying) is God's answer to our dilemma and there must be some reason for us to either stay or go, beyond just life advancing and evolving as it does.

If I mention I'm having a hard time letting go of friends or professional network here... Then God must have a reason for me to stay and be in connection with these people.

If I mention that I'm excited about the possible growth of this company... That must be God telling me of my great potential.

If I mention that the numbers just don't make it clear what I should do... That is God telling me to rely in him. Rely on him for what? All I can rely in revelation for is contradictory feelings depending on the time of day, what I had for lunch, and whether the last person I talked to was spontaneous or reserved in nature.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:03 pm
by græy
Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:52 am
Hugs. Sometimes it all just gets to be too much to carry inside. I'm glad we can be here for you to vent to.
Thank you Fifi.

I'm still trying to catch up on all of the NOM stuff I missed during the past few weeks. I was glad to read that your son's wedding went well. It sounds like you managed being outside as well as possible.

I agree with your notion that any possible changes in that real, while welcome, would be like twisting the dagger on people who were forced to miss a loved one's ceremony. I can only imagine how frustrating that could be.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:02 pm
by Red Ryder
Congrats on the job offer.

You have nothing to lose with a counter offer. Ask them for what you want and see what happens. The worst thing they could say is no.

That is if you truly want to make a move.

Jobs will always come and go. Planting your feet where you choose and like to live, well that's the real decision.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:28 am
by jfro18
Congrats!

Definitely do a counter offer -- I haven't had a "real" job in a while but I worked with HR departments for a while and I know in many jobs that's not just common but expected. Usually you'd just phrase it as you did here - you might not be looking for a huge step up, but you definitely don't want to lose $$ after insurance/taxes/whatever so you need them to meet you at XYZ amount so it's a lateral move at least financially.

Good luck with the other stuff... if I knew the answer I'd gladly give it, but I'm still going through it too. :)

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:11 am
by Linked
HR departments like to have something to tie the counter offer to, like a competing offer.

You might consider getting your current job involved if you are comfortable with that and it is not taboo in your work. Tell your boss that you have received an offer for more money at another company and are considering taking it, and he may ask if you would consider staying if they matched/gave you a raise. Take that amount to the other company, along with whatever conversion rate for cost of living/other benefits, and see if they will pony up to get you. If not, hopefully at least you got a raise.

In this negotiation you can give as much or as little information as you want and feel comfortable about, though all other parties will ask for the information. In a negotiation information is super important, and the companies will give you very little and ask for everything, so don't feel bad in asking for money, they generally try to play on a sloped playing field. You need to make your alternatives look better than what either company is currently offering (that is, of course, easiest when the alternatives are better...).

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:46 am
by slavereeno
græy wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:54 am
I wrapped up, turned time over to the other members, grabbed a tissue and sat down. It was, somewhat embarrassing, and I am still a little confused about where it came from.
First of all, good luck with the job choice. That kind of dissonance combined with church dissonance, combined with heath issues is a recipe for heightened emotions.

In fact I have had some work/church/health related issues recently also. A couple of Sundays ago, after church, I was making cookies with my daughters. We were listening to Les Miserables songs and my daughters were asking about some of the characters. As I was retelling some of the stories and answering questions about the love and sacrifices made by the characters, I broke down and began to uh, you know, leak water from the eyes. But it was similar to what you described, sudden emotions that took me a bit by surprise.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:16 pm
by græy
Thank you, everyone. Still working out the job decisions. Time to make a final call is growing short.
slavereeno wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:46 am
That kind of dissonance combined with church dissonance, combined with heath issues is a recipe for heightened emotions.

In fact I have had some work/church/health related issues recently also. A couple of Sundays ago, after church, I was making cookies with my daughters. We were listening to Les Miserables songs and my daughters were asking about some of the characters. As I was retelling some of the stories and answering questions about the love and sacrifices made by the characters, I broke down and began to uh, you know, leak water from the eyes. But it was similar to what you described, sudden emotions that took me a bit by surprise.
I'm happy to know I'm in good company. :)

My boys were whispering to DW throughout the whole fiasco... "What is wrong with dad? I've never seen him cry before." Ah... good times.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:16 am
by græy
Another quick rant.

DW and I are still debating a move to another state. The new job offer is a small net-loss in terms of salary, and now my current job has countered that, increasing the loss we'd take if we go. That said, it is her home state, and she is not 100% happy where we are.

Part of the reason for her unhappiness is the fact that we have outgrown our current home and we'd like to move into something bigger. But despite earning what is otherwise a fairly hefty salary, we just cannot afford it. The local explosion of real estate values and corresponding property taxes along with our monthly 10% temple bill is absolutely killing us.

A few weeks ago another TBM family mentioned to me that they were looking at other houses as well. The wife of the family asked "Since you are in the bishopric you can authorize this: Could we pay tithing on a lesser definition? That would really help make a payment on a newer home." I laughed and told her I knew of many ways to define 10% of increase and I wouldn't judge anyone's personal choice on that. Her husband (who I think is the more TBM member of their team) laughed and quietly said no. And there it ended.

Later, I told my wife (who is friends with the other woman) about the question. She didn't respond either way.

So last night, while discussing options with regards to moving, whether in state or to the other state, I casually suggested we follow her friend's example and rethink the definition of tithing. She shook her head and told me I was walking a fine line. Then she got up and walked away. That was where the conversation ended.

There are days where I feel like she's starting understand me when I tell her things are not as we've always been taught. Nothing is black and white, including the church. Our conversations do sometimes include specifics (1st visions, anachronisms, faith-promoting but ultimately untrue stories, corrupt leaders being chosen by power of "discernment", etc.). But in the end, she is still choosing to close her eyes and plug her ears to the reality of our situation.

I don't think I can do this much longer.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:22 am
by Red Ryder
Hey Graey,

Moving is an opportunity to step away from the church. You can be the inactive half assed guy in a new ward. Nobody will know your prior history or callings. You can be the guy "just supporting the wife". You can be anyone you want to be in a new ward.

Just saying.

In state move to a bigger house or out of state move to another job are both opportunities to step back out of your current church role.

You got to plan and strategize your exit.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:04 pm
by slavereeno
græy wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:16 am
There are days where I feel like she's starting understand me when I tell her things are not as we've always been taught. Nothing is black and white, including the church. Our conversations do sometimes include specifics (1st visions, anachronisms, faith-promoting but ultimately untrue stories, corrupt leaders being chosen by power of "discernment", etc.). But in the end, she is still choosing to close her eyes and plug her ears to the reality of our situation.

I don't think I can do this much longer.
I am right there with you, maybe just a half a step ahead. Sorry you are dealing with this.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:28 pm
by Red Ryder
What did you decide about the job?

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:48 pm
by græy
Hey Red, thanks for following up.

Long story short, my current employer re-upped their counter offer without me adding anything to the table. I essentially got a raise over their original counter which beat my new job offer, and a promotion to boot.

All in, it would cost us ~$800/month to leave at this point. So we stayed.

Your words of wisdom about planning my exit are very true. An upgraded home outside of our current ward boundaries is likely in our not-too-distant future.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:13 pm
by Red Ryder
græy wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:48 pm
Hey Red, thanks for following up.

Long story short, my current employer re-upped their counter offer without me adding anything to the table. I essentially got a raise over their original counter which beat my new job offer, and a promotion to boot.

All in, it would cost us ~$800/month to leave at this point. So we stayed.

Your words of wisdom about planning my exit are very true. An upgraded home outside of our current ward boundaries is likely in our not-too-distant future.
Congrats!

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 12:46 pm
by græy
I just posted the latest episode of Ward Council Shenanigans in the support thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4124&start=20#p58773

And now for the aftermath once I returned home.

DW could tell things were off when I went straight for the tylenol as soon as I walked in the door. I told her what happened word for word. She admitted to talking to SS Pre's wife about how much I hate those conversations about people who have left. She apologized, but really I don't mind. She needs someone to talk to and they are good friends.

She perked up when I told her that I wound up in the Bishop's office just me and him at the end. But nothing came of that conversation anyway.

She suggested that I go back to the bishop to have a real conversation about my concerns. I finally had to admit that I don't want to go to him, because I feel like I'll be forced to admit where I stand on a number of points, some of which I'm not 100% sure myself where I actually stand. That got her attention and she asked me what I meant.

I reminded her that I mentioned a long time ago (years, at this point) that I do not believe the BoM to be historical. She was basically unfased by that then and now. She questions whether that would really matter to anyone. I had to point out that it isn't the historicity itself that presents a problem, but what it implies. Meaning, there was no Moroni, there were no plates. When Joseph referred to them, for decades, he was not telling to truth or was completely deluded, neither of which shines a pretty light on his calling as prophet. I kept going and told her that I think polygamy was wrong. I don't believe it had anything to do with God.

At that point she asked what I think of modern prophets. Do I sustain them? I told her that I think they are susceptible to the same mistakes and Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They don't receive any amount of revelation beyond what we do. The only difference is that they are in charge of the church as a whole. She asked me again if I sustain them, and I was unsure of how to answer further. I think in the end I took the easy way out and said that I keep my life in line with what they ask, and live according to the church standards, so in that respect I am sustaining them.

Given all of that, she still doesn't see a problem with my going to the Bishop, but did relent that I know him much better than she does. We have been friends for years. He is a good man, very approachable, easy to talk to. But also very by-the-book. It would be all too easy to say something that crosses a line in his mind, and him then feeling duty bound to report me to the stake president. I may have already crossed that line.

In the end, DW told me that she loved me. She has seen me struggle with learning all these things over the past few years and has listened to some of it. She feels bad that I feel isolated through all of this.

It ended there. All-in-all, on a very good note. I don't know that anything will change in the immediate future, but it was a win for the day.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 2:41 pm
by slavereeno
Again, wow. You are very patient. It sounds like slow progress, there is some understanding there without a lot of confrontation.

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 3:15 pm
by wtfluff
græy wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 12:46 pm
At that point she asked what I think of modern prophets. Do I sustain them? I told her that I think they are susceptible to the same mistakes and Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They don't receive any amount of revelation beyond what we do. The only difference is that they are in charge of the church as a whole. She asked me again if I sustain them, and I was unsure of how to answer further. I think in the end I took the easy way out and said that I keep my life in line with what they ask, and live according to the church standards, so in that respect I am sustaining them.
Next time something about "sustaining" comes up, say something like: "To quote President Hinkley: They are called as such." (That was his answer on TV when he was asked if he was a prophet. "I am called as such." Or something along those lines., wasn't it?)

Or you could get sarcastic and say "I sustain that their job titles as the board of directors in the Corporation of the President are: prophets, seers, revelators."


Yeah, I know. I'm no help at all. :cry:

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 8:18 am
by græy
wtfluff wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 3:15 pm
Next time something about "sustaining" comes up, say something like: "To quote President Hinkley: They are called as such." (That was his answer on TV when he was asked if he was a prophet. "I am called as such." Or something along those lines., wasn't it?)

Or you could get sarcastic and say "I sustain that their job titles as the board of directors in the Corporation of the President are: prophets, seers, revelators."

Yeah, I know. I'm no help at all. :cry:
I definitely had answers like that running through my mind. I sustain them as presidents, ceos, and regulators of a multi-national corporation.

In fact, just for fun, here is my version of recommend question number 4:

Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as president, ceo, and regulator and as the only person on the earth who is authorized to create policy for the church as a whole? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as presidents, ceos, and regulators?

Re: Mr. and Mrs. Græy's Stuff

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:12 pm
by Just This Guy
græy wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:18 am
Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as president, ceo, and regulator and as the only person on the earth who is authorized to create policy for the church as a whole, as well as the only legal member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as presidents, ceos, and regulators?

Added a bit that you missed.