Why some DWs/DHs follow and others don't?

[Newme]

I really wonder what makes the difference - why some spouses follow along with the other in learning the good and bad of the church, and why some refuse to. Or as some may say, why some cling for dear life to "old wine bottles" while others can let go and progress. I imagine there are many factors:

-Their own psychology - how they think vs. feel - if they give too much power to emotional reasoning, their fears & hopes
-Their upbringing - any superstitious beliefs or other distorted/illogical beliefs their parents taught
-How much they depend on the church - for social life, or financial well-being
-How much the church acts as their scapegoat - their ability to "trust in men/GA's" rather than themselves & "the kingdom of God within."
-How comfortable they are with change, and being "wrong" - we all were and will be repeatedly - how do we deal with it? Fight it or accept it?
-Similarly - how well they're able to THINK - to really independently think and consider new possibilities - outside the box they're given, and not be too quick to believe what others say at face value
-Their ability to think in colors - NOT black-or-white, so they see morality and a good marriage as possible, even without "good member standing" status
-How close a couple is - if they really relate - and really support each other - even if they disagree, they respect the other's right to think and feel as they do.
-Maybe at least some of it is how the NOM spouse presents things - if they ridicule the TBM spouse for believing etc - it may cause TBM to be more defensive
-How wisdom-hungry they are - if they have a sense of quest to discover truth - or if they're complacent

To me, now, I see how I was before - when someone would question me about "my" religion - I'd get a little defensive and beneath that was fear that maybe they were right and I was wrong. I was walking on shaky ground - not a firm foundation at all. Ironically, when I feel pretty good about my reasoning, I'm generally more open to learning more, especially if it makes sense to me. Maybe one of the keys is speaking the TBM spouse's reasoning language - some are logical, others emotional/spiritual or intuitive.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

One more factor:
-Spouse's family and how dedicated/unified they are in church activity (fear of family rejection/judgement)

[Mormorrisey]

Some really good points that you raise in this post, and I think what it reflects is that there is a spectrum or continuum of reasons why some choose to leave (or choose to stay, for that matter) with a spouse and others don't, and it's probably different for each couple. Isn't that what this board is all about?

The only thing I would add is of course from experience. That some spouses are simply just believers, and they've had spiritual experiences that support them in staying in the church. That's Sister M to a T, and to me, that's fine. And we have a pretty good marriage, that like all goes off the rails from time to time, whether it's my apostasy or I forgot to take out the garbage. One of the things that seem to be working for us, is to recognize where we both are. For example, I will say that I'm learning about (insert topic here) because I read it on (insert source here) and here's what I think about it (insert rant here.) Sister M will comment that while I'm certainly entitled to my opinion, the church is true and that's all there is to it. And these days, we seem to be on the same page with almost everything else, so we seem to have called a religious truce on these matters, which is great. Well, until next week anyway.

But one thing that Sister M has done which has been really helpful to me and I've told her so, that when I ask her why she thinks a certain way, she's very honest now and says, "well, in my bubble I think this way," or, "I haven't given it much thought, and I don't think it's important," or "I'm just going to put that on a shelf and not worry about it." I know that can be frustrating for some, (and it certainly frustrates ME from time to time, no doubt of that) but I think Sister M is just being honest. And that's OK. Where I think she has grown some is to recognize that I just can't do that. While she might not like it, I do think she's getting used to it. And that has made a world of difference over the last little while, for which I'm very grateful.

[Newme]

Good comments, thank you.

I began writing my list, thinking of my DH, but then considered other TBM families' possible reasons.

And as mentioned, there are a variety of reasons and everyone's unique.

[glass shelf]

I've thought about this a lot. My situation is a little different because my husband was an apathetic Mormon long before my shelf broke. It caused a lot of tension in our marriage as I tried to make us live a better version of mormonism and felt totally unsupported in doing so. But when I was done, I was d-o-n-e, and he left with me.

One thing my therapist said is that people value different things. I value authenticity more than community. That's just part of me. When my husband tried to point out small things about the church in the 15 years before my shelf crashed, I shrugged it off because I knew I had the truth. He, on the other hand, values family harmony more than whether or not the church is ultimately true. If I hadn't left, he'd just still be skipping the occasional Sunday with my resentment for him growing about why he wasn't a better priesthood holder. It's hard for me to come to grips with this some days. I realize that my dictatorial stance about the church made it hard for him to be open about his feelings, but I still struggle with how he could not care enough to research why he felt the way he does about the church. He was an apathtic Mormon compared to me, and he's an apathetic ex-Mo. As he says, "Religion's just not that big of a thing to me. I just don't care that much either way."

Mostly, I try not to look a gift horse in the mouth because I'm really grateful my kids all got out before they were teens.

My parents also left the church after I did. My mom was along for my journey, and I think she listened to the things I was sharing because we had long discussed issues we had with the church about various things. I clearly remember her saying several years ago that she would want to know if the church wasn't true because she'd invested so much in it. I mentioned that to her one day, and she didn't remember it, but she did want to know. She did her own research. My dad was willing to listen to her after he got past his knee-jerk "I know the church is true" reaction. It was a rough six months, and he had to go through a grieving process to get there. I didn't tell him about my leaving until my mom had already told him that she was going to leave as soon as he was done being bishop (he was months away from getting released). I think he had to face the fact that the church had lied to him and stop feeling loyal to a decision that he'd made as a teen. That's hard stuff, but the essays made it easier because they admitted they were lying about many things.

I think the biggest factor is that someone has to be in a place where they want to know whether or not it's true. I wasn't there for many years because I have lots of red flags that I can think of now that I wish I hadn't ignored.

[Vlad the Emailer]

That some spouses are simply just believers, and they've had spiritual experiences that support them in staying in the church. That's Sister M to a T

It's sister V to a T as well, but so is this.....

To me, now, I see how I was before - when someone would question me about "my" religion - I'd get a little defensive and beneath that was fear that maybe they were right and I was wrong.

I think that ultimately the "I already know all the anti stuff, but I refuse to talk about it" TBM, is scared out of his/her faithful little skull. I think they (my wife yes, but many a believing TBM in general as well) know just enough of the crazy stuff to know that the whole deal might be nothing but a bunch of crazy stuff and that their "sacred spiritual experience(s)" were defined as such by the church, and the church could simply be wrong about that too.

As I've mentioned before, when my wife said "I don't want to read the essays because I don't want to have to defend them" I was, and still am, convinced that she knew that didn't mean defend them to me; she didn't want to have to defend them to herself.

I sincerely believe that the average TBM does not want to know or talk about anything because they don't want to have to hold themselves accountable for what to do with the information.

[Deepthinker]

This is a good question that I've wondered about every now and then.

I think the answer is quite varied. My experience with DW is that she is all about the community of the church. She's never had what she would call a spiritual experience. For her, its about fitting within the larger group, and finding love and acceptance from that group.

[MerrieMiss]

I've thought about this a lot. My situation is a little different because my husband was an apathetic Mormon long before my shelf broke. It caused a lot of tension in our marriage as I tried to make us live a better version of mormonism and felt totally unsupported in doing so.

This really resonates with me. I don't know if my husband is apathetic or just lazy (I hate using that word because it has such negative connotations, but I just don't know what else to call it). He believes in the church, and he doesn't do anything that would take away his TR, but he doesn't do any of the stuff he's supposed to do (HT, scripture study, temple attendance, magnify his calling or whatever) unless he's nagged by someone. I was very frustrated and I felt some shame because obviously I wasn't doing enough to make my man a better, more godly man to preside over the family.

One of the big reasons I haven't come out to him about how I feel about the church is because as much as I hated his relaxed approach to church when I was TBM, I am so thankful for it now. While my more relaxed position with the church irritates him a little (he does not like that I ditched the garments, for example), in a lot of ways, I think he enjoys my less hardline approach. (And yeah, he likes the new undies, he just thinks I lost integrity because I promised to wear the garments - which I did NOT do.)

[Newme]

One thing my therapist said is that people value different things. I value authenticity more than community. That's just part of me. When my husband tried to point out small things about the church in the 15 years before my shelf crashed, I shrugged it off because I knew I had the truth. He, on the other hand, values family harmony more than whether or not the church is ultimately true. If I hadn't left, he'd just still be skipping the occasional Sunday with my resentment for him growing about why he wasn't a better priesthood holder. It's hard for me to come to grips with this some days. I realize that my dictatorial stance about the church made it hard for him to be open about his feelings, but I still struggle with how he could not care enough to research why he felt the way he does about the church. He was an apathtic Mormon compared to me, and he's an apathetic ex-Mo. As he says, "Religion's just not that big of a thing to me. I just don't care that much either way."

I can relate with this. I also tend to prioritize authenticity (truth) above social harmony. It makes me cringe when I think of how I'd kind of lecture my "inactive" sister - saying I wished she could be at a family wedding in the temple. She was pretty cool about it - a good example for how I want to be in the future if/when I'm in that situation. It's difficult to be authentic at church for me now - so much I don't believe. RS, especially can be very trying because of the focus on worshipping church leaders. I think I might start skipping it again - I'll still be there for the rest to support DH.

My DH was a convert and was raised with religion being low on priorities, but he served a mission so that influence occasionally comes up. Most of the times he's layed back - but once in a while, he turns very strict and everyone has to follow suit, or else. It's almost like a part of him knows that the healthy way is layed back - not anal - but then here and there the church's teachings interrupt that. Even before my shelf fell, when I married him, I was glad he wasn't a Peter Priesthood type.

[Newme]

As I've mentioned before, when my wife said "I don't want to read the essays because I don't want to have to defend them" I was, and still am, convinced that she knew that didn't mean defend them to me; she didn't want to have to defend them to herself.

I sincerely believe that the average TBM does not want to know or talk about anything because they don't want to have to hold themselves accountable for what to do with the information.

Exactly.
I really think that it takes a lot of work plus some, to embrace both faith and doubt.
It can feel like a crushing death to know you were wrong about something significant!
It really hurts - and I think many people just don't want to go through it - to have to recreate a new foundation of faith.
Yet, IMO, this is what any true God (higher GOoD) would require - to not cling to "old wine bottles" - to not worship false gods - but to be open to "good news" - new things - even when you find out over and over that you're wrong again and again.

[Newme]

This is a good question that I've wondered about every now and then.

I think the answer is quite varied. My experience with DW is that she is all about the community of the church. She's never had what she would call a spiritual experience. For her, its about fitting within the larger group, and finding love and acceptance from that group.

And I think that's valid - I mean the church does have an amazing social network!
It's spirituality in action - serving and loving one another.
My dad joined the church because people befriended him - played sports with him - and he still sits with his life-time friends in church each Sunday, even if he occasionally drinks beer.

What I've found is that some people (not all) in the church are very conditional about their love - and can turn on you if they come to discover you don't think as they do. This is a fact that is always there even if many members don't realize it - it may only be discovered when it's experienced. Then again, it's like friendships - I have some friends who I joke with mostly, others who I have deep conversations with - I relate uniquely with each - and church friends can be compartmentalized like that too I guess.

[Giant Sloth]

I ran a poll years ago regarding what happened to the spouses of NOMs over the years.

IIRC, about 60% loosened up and became less TBM, 20% stayed about the same, and 20% doubled down and became more TBM.

The consensus was that if a spouse is willing to read and research, it is only a matter of time before they become more or less NOM as well.

[Newme]

I ran a poll years ago regarding what happened to the spouses of NOMs over the years.

IIRC, about 60% loosened up and became less TBM, 20% stayed about the same, and 20% doubled down and became more TBM.

The consensus was that if a spouse is willing to read and research, it is only a matter of time before they become more or less NOM as well.

Interesting. Good to know some data on this.
A little disheartening considering my circumstances - though it could always be worse.

[Raylan Givens]

For DW it is about commitment, she committed years ago to go to church. She had reasons not to (dad is a kind, but intellectual atheist). Once my DW makes a choice, she sticks to it.

To me, it is a church, people go to churches all the time...why not this one? No one shot me yet

[Newme]

For DW it is about commitment, she committed years ago to go to church. She had reasons not to (dad is a kind, but intellectual atheist). Once my DW makes a choice, she sticks to it.

To me, it is a church, people go to churches all the time...why not this one? No one shot me yet

You remind me of things on a list of what helps people be happy - one is religious involvement.
I think it helps give kids a sense of some spirituality - which is essential to get through the thorns of life.

Someone was just telling me how he was raised Atheist and he had wished his parents had given him some religious guidance.
It's a fine line, I think.
I want to give my kids a good sense of community and spirituality, yet I don't want them sucked into shame-based group thought, where they may, like many feel anxiety or depression over the sometimes crushing sense of endless obligations.

Another study I read explained that basically moderate religious affiliation (not extreme nor not involved at all) was found to be most healthy.
You seem to have that healthy approach.