Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
Post Reply
User avatar
Enoch Witty
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:14 am

Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by Enoch Witty » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:31 am

So I'm a dude, and I'm also a feminist. One of my biggest problems with the church is the patriarchal sexism baked in from the doctrine to the temple to the culture.

I come from a family of strong TBM women. My grandma had the more action-oriented personality of my grandparents, my mom spearheaded basically every church activity, and my wife similarly is the more spiritually focused one in my home. My sister and various aunts take control at family gatherings. Etc. There are strong personalities among the men in my family, but when it comes to spirituality or actually getting stuff done, it's the women, 100 percent.

As I consider the church with more objective eyes, I note the rampant sexism everywhere. The BOM has three named female characters (besides Mary and Eve), which represent the three acceptable archetypes for Mormon women: mother, wife, or whore. The temple's sexism bothered me from day one, with my wife covenanting to hearken to me, not to God, in the endowment, and her being "given" to me in the sealing, with no reciprocation the other way. Gross, gross, gross. Don't even get me started on the cultural norms and expectations.

So here's the awkward part: as a man, it's not my job to tell women how to feel; it's my job to listen and offer support.

My wife consistently expresses that she feels empowered by the church, and she absolutely loves the temple (which I really, truly don't understand, but that's okay). Occasionally, though, she'll beat herself up for anything less than perfect performance or feel the need apologize profusely for something not really demanding even a mild apology. I've seen these characteristics in women in the church my whole life, seen them parodied even, but when I try to suggest that maybe this is a negative cultural impact of the church, the idea gets shut down immediately: "No, no, that's just my personality." I will say that my wife has it together impressively, though. She's super liberal, and though she would never term it this way, she takes from the gospel the things that uplift and inspire her and ignores the rest.

My mother, grandma, sister, aunts, cousins, though... they're cut from a different cloth. That side of my family is ultra conservative and ultra into the authoritarian nature of the church: if the prophet says it, it must be true. No matter how gross the actions or statements of an apostle, his station means we should love and respect every word that comes out of his mouth. The leader worship in my family is extremely apparent.

All of this fine. People can believe what they want to believe, especially if they find it empowering. But how should I, as a man, approach with the TBM women in my life the fact that one of my primary issues with the church is the blatant misogyny cloaked in patriarchy? It's not my place to tell anybody how to feel, and if I was direct in these opinions about the church, I have no doubt that I would be shouted down and told I'm wrong. That wouldn't change how I feel, of course, but it wouldn't be productive.

So yeah, it's awkward to be a man disgusted by the obvious misogyny around me while surrounded by TBM women who don't see any problem at all. As this comes up more and more, what is the proper male-feminist way to approach this issue?

User avatar
LSOF
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:16 pm
Location: Mare Crisium
Contact:

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by LSOF » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:21 am

I respect a religious person's right to hold her beliefs, but I also reserve the right to find them ridiculous and to ridicule them. Thus I have solved the quandary of being both an advocate of social justice and an atheist. The religious person has every right to ridicule my beliefs so long as she respects my right to hold them. However, she has not the right to enact laws, or suffer laws to be enacted, based solely on her religious opinions.

The essence of feminism is respecting women's choices. They are free to choose to bind themselves down under a patriarchal system or to throw off the same. A woman who would bind herself down under a patriarchal system has no right to enforce her preference with the power of the state, nor does any woman who would choose any of a number of "liberated" lives. It is as incorrect and repugnant to feminism to enforce one choice as to enforce the other.
"I appreciate your flesh needs to martyr me." Parture

"There is no contradiction between faith and science --- true science." Dr Zaius

Pastor, Lunar Society of Friends; CEO, Faithful Origins and Ontology League

User avatar
Enoch Witty
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by Enoch Witty » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:47 pm

LSOF wrote:The essence of feminism is respecting women's choices. They are free to choose to bind themselves down under a patriarchal system or to throw off the same. A woman who would bind herself down under a patriarchal system has no right to enforce her preference with the power of the state, nor does any woman who would choose any of a number of "liberated" lives. It is as incorrect and repugnant to feminism to enforce one choice as to enforce the other.
I agree with you completely. My quandary isn't that I want them to see things my way. It's that I don't want to hurt them or make them feel belittled by suggesting that they're not feminist/feminine enough due to believing the church. How can I express my disgust with the deep sexism I've noticed without sending an unintended message of judgment about their own choices/experiences in the church?

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2357
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by alas » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:17 pm

Sometimes women from a family of very strong women see no problem with the sexism because it doesn't hurt them. I have a daughter in law who is this way. She sees no sexism at all in the church, just different "roles" yet, most Traditional men would call my son horribly hen pecked. She has a strong personality, and really doesn't mean "to wear the pants in the family" and would be terribly crushed by anyone telling her that she runs roughshod over her poor husband. But the truth is she does. Yet, my son had two big sisters to match up with her being the big sister to brothers, so, really this is sort of the dynamic they grew up with and in my son's case, he is guilty of enjoying sitting back and letting her run things. Some men would resent a wife like she is and fight for control of family life, financial decisions, and even driving.

So, with her dominant personality, and a mother just like her, she doesn't see it.

But my son contrasts his own mother to his wife and MIL and he can see both sides. He can see how damaging some church messages are to a woman who is already by nature quiet and submissive to be told she is supposed to be a submissive wife. So, he sees how damaging it can be to women who grow up with a strongly dominant father like mine was. It is already out of balance due to the girl's personality, then add on her dominant father and submissive mother as her role models, then have the church tell her that she is to be subject to her husband, and then throw on top of that, that the church treats the boys/young men as if they are more important, and you have leathal soup of destroyed self worth.

So, I think first of all you have to acknowledge that they personally may not have been hurt by sexism in the church because they had a good self confident and strong role model in their mother, and a strong personality of their own. They never internalized the message that women without their personality do internalize. It is like someone who is self confident can handle criticism, but someone who never got a chance to have any self esteem or self confidence might be crushed by the same criticism.

You simply tell them that some women ARE harmed by the message from the church that they are somehow less worthwhile to God than men are, while because they know they are worth just as much as any man, they don't even notice the message of female inferiority.

User avatar
MerrieMiss
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:03 pm

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by MerrieMiss » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:48 pm

alas wrote:Sometimes women from a family of very strong women see no problem with the sexism because it doesn't hurt them. I have a daughter in law who is this way. She sees no sexism at all in the church, just different "roles" yet, most Traditional men would call my son horribly hen pecked. She has a strong personality, and really doesn't mean "to wear the pants in the family" and would be terribly crushed by anyone telling her that she runs roughshod over her poor husband. But the truth is she does. Yet, my son had two big sisters to match up with her being the big sister to brothers, so, really this is sort of the dynamic they grew up with and in my son's case, he is guilty of enjoying sitting back and letting her run things. Some men would resent a wife like she is and fight for control of family life, financial decisions, and even driving.

So, with her dominant personality, and a mother just like her, she doesn't see it.
I was a woman like that until motherhood broke me. I'm not saying that strong women are all like I was, but I was not very kind or empathetic to women who were not strong women within the patriarchal system. In my mind, they needed to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." It was terrible thinking on my part and I did not understand the other side until I became a mother and a SAHM and realized I was under the system too. In many ways, I think women like I was are the worst perpetrators of sexism and patriarchy in the church. (I am in no way pointing fingers at EW's wife or alas's DIL - it's just a general observation. Women who hold power in patriarchy do not want to give it up. If they give it up, if the power system crumbles, they risk being subjugated.)

I'm not really sure what the answer is. If there is one thing my faith transition has done, it has made me into a far more kind and compassionate human being. I feel for women on both sides of feminism and I think that all women are harmed within the sexism of the church. Men are harmed by it. I don't like patriarchy and sexism in the church. It angers me. It worries me. I have all sons, and I worry about them as much as I would worry if I had a daughter, although about different things. The one message I do hope to convey to my sons is that I, their mother, am a person who has beliefs, desires, intelligence, feelings of my own, just as they have. Just as all men and women have. And I certainly hope that they find women to marry one day who can believe the same of them.

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 1533
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by Linked » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:24 pm

alas wrote:Sometimes women from a family of very strong women see no problem with the sexism because it doesn't hurt them. I have a daughter in law who is this way. She sees no sexism at all in the church, just different "roles" yet, most Traditional men would call my son horribly hen pecked. She has a strong personality, and really doesn't mean "to wear the pants in the family" and would be terribly crushed by anyone telling her that she runs roughshod over her poor husband. But the truth is she does. Yet, my son had two big sisters to match up with her being the big sister to brothers, so, really this is sort of the dynamic they grew up with and in my son's case, he is guilty of enjoying sitting back and letting her run things. Some men would resent a wife like she is and fight for control of family life, financial decisions, and even driving.

So, with her dominant personality, and a mother just like her, she doesn't see it.
First, I am a man, so hopefully that doesn't disqualify me commenting on this.

I have a similar background of strong women in the family, my mother was the dominant one in our family so I didn't see the sexism as naturally as someone who came from a father-dominant family. I also know plenty of other dominant mormon women and am naturally submissive myself, so this never came up for me until I started reading on NOM 1.0. The stories of abused women and dominating husbands made me change my worldview.

If the women you are having these discussions with can't relate to the pains caused by the inherent sexism in the church then you can't use them as an example. But there are certainly stories of women who it has hurt, and does hurt. If you really want them to see that the church has is sexist then use those stories. And if they are empowered by the church then that's great! The church doesn't have to be all wrong, does it?

ETA - It would be interesting to see the statistics of which spouse is more dominating in straight marriage. And I always found the non-dominating mothers of my friends so kind and refreshing.

LSOF wrote:The essence of feminism is respecting women's choices. They are free to choose to bind themselves down under a patriarchal system or to throw off the same. A woman who would bind herself down under a patriarchal system has no right to enforce her preference with the power of the state, nor does any woman who would choose any of a number of "liberated" lives. It is as incorrect and repugnant to feminism to enforce one choice as to enforce the other.
A lot of the tweets I see from feminists are pointing out one misogyny or another. I am new to feminism, is pointing out and convincing people of misogynistic things a core part of feminism? That seems to be what OP is trying to do.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
LSOF
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:16 pm
Location: Mare Crisium
Contact:

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by LSOF » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:43 pm

Linked wrote:
LSOF wrote:The essence of feminism is respecting women's choices. They are free to choose to bind themselves down under a patriarchal system or to throw off the same. A woman who would bind herself down under a patriarchal system has no right to enforce her preference with the power of the state, nor does any woman who would choose any of a number of "liberated" lives. It is as incorrect and repugnant to feminism to enforce one choice as to enforce the other.
A lot of the tweets I see from feminists are pointing out one misogyny or another. I am new to feminism, is pointing out and convincing people of misogynistic things a core part of feminism? That seems to be what OP is trying to do.
That is indeed a major feminist activity, which is not well-liked by some cis-gender, heterosexual white males (the privileged class). But it still has the objective of getting people to respect women's choices. For millennia, the default choice (the only choice) was to be bound down under patriarchy, so feminism has mainly focused on providing women the opportunity to unbind themselves. A major part of misogyny is "women are weak, so they need strong men to protect them", which leads directly to patriarchy, which itself leads to the restriction and contempt of women's choices.

The "third wave" of feminism is mainly occupied with reforming the culture to be less misogynistic, and also with intersectionality, or the recognition that intersections of bigotries (e.g. the origins and effects of homophobia, anti-black racism, and anti-atheism against a gay black atheist) have special effects and need to be treated specially. Due to this more general focus, it is also called "social justice"; hence the derisive term sometimes applied to feminists by those who oppose feminism, "Social Justice Warriors".
"I appreciate your flesh needs to martyr me." Parture

"There is no contradiction between faith and science --- true science." Dr Zaius

Pastor, Lunar Society of Friends; CEO, Faithful Origins and Ontology League

User avatar
Snowdrop
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by Snowdrop » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:25 am

The preferential gender treatment within the church begins to really display itself in primary budget. In my ward, for ever one dollar spent on a primary aged girl three are spent on her male peer. There is no way to mask this as anything other than a culture of sexism. Don't allow the blame to fall on the scouting program. If the church wanted to they could have an equal program for girls.

She is being prepared for baptism, maybe a mission, temple marriage, and as many babies as her uterus can push out. He is prepared for baptism, priesthoods, mission, higher education, temple marriage, fulfilling career, and fatherhood. We prepare our young women to raise boys who can be bishop but not to be great in their own right. It is infuriating! I thought that this bothered me as a young woman when I saw how valued my brother was compared to myself growing up, but I had no idea how angry it would make me as the mother of a daughter and a son. My daughter deserves to be given the same opportunities to learn, adventure, and develop as my son. The church cannot give that to her. I fear that if I allow her to grow up in this culture her spirit will be damaged, and I cannot allow that.
I don't believe we were born to be sheep in a flock
To pantomime prayers with the hands of a clock
- Paul Simon

User avatar
MalcolmVillager
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:43 pm

I am in your same boat. I am raising 5 daughters and no sons, so I have become a feminist through experience. I try to rally DW to the cause but she has no interest in the PH or leadership. She doesn't see the inequality of the temple, although she abhors polygamy (and has it on all sides of her family tree).

I try to point out patriarchy but she just sees that as anti-church.

I think she will come around but I hope we can inoculate the girls before they get the lifelong disease!

User avatar
trophywife26.2
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:50 pm

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by trophywife26.2 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:37 pm

I really could not see the misogyny that I was drowning in until I stopped believing in the church. To be honest, the temple ceremony didn't even bug me, but I was greatly worried about loud laughter. Cognitive dissonance is powerful. Sometimes it's just easier to look away than face the painful truth.
Even if it's something disappointing, it's still better to know the truth. Because people can deal with disappointment. And once they've done that, they can feel that they have really grown. And that can be such a good feeling. -Fred Rogers

User avatar
Enoch Witty
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by Enoch Witty » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:47 pm

trophywife26.2 wrote:I really could not see the misogyny that I was drowning in until I stopped believing in the church. To be honest, the temple ceremony didn't even bug me, but I was greatly worried about loud laughter. Cognitive dissonance is powerful. Sometimes it's just easier to look away than face the painful truth.
This is sadly something I witness every day. :/

User avatar
trophywife26.2
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:50 pm

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by trophywife26.2 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:17 pm

Enoch Witty wrote:
trophywife26.2 wrote:I really could not see the misogyny that I was drowning in until I stopped believing in the church. To be honest, the temple ceremony didn't even bug me, but I was greatly worried about loud laughter. Cognitive dissonance is powerful. Sometimes it's just easier to look away than face the painful truth.
This is sadly something I witness every day. :/
If it makes you feel better, I was not sad at the time! I did not feel like I was drowning. I was satisfied with the answers I had for life. How lucky we are to not have to worry over things like having food to eat or a roof over our heads, but to worry about things like the meaning of life and what our place is in it and whether or not it's fair?
Even if it's something disappointing, it's still better to know the truth. Because people can deal with disappointment. And once they've done that, they can feel that they have really grown. And that can be such a good feeling. -Fred Rogers

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by moksha » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:14 pm

The traditional message sometimes given by LDS women conjures up the lyrics of that old Ella Fitzgerald song,

There's a somebody I'm longin' to see
I hope that he turns out to be
Someone who'll rule over me

I'm a little lamb who's lost in the wood
I know I could, always be good
To one who'll rule over me...
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
sparky
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:47 pm

Re: Male feminism vs. TBM women?

Post by sparky » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:57 pm

I posted a similar question on Reddit and then came here and realized you guys had already been discussing the very thing I was asking about. You've all shared some good insights, thanks!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests