Kids in MFM

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Angel
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Kids in MFM

Post by Angel » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:22 pm

So... my youngest DD stayed home from church with me today, her choice, and her TBM dad came home from church and yelled at her for it.... I stood up for her, told him we had a more productive morning than they did (we did laundry, and HW), that there was nothing wrong with her staying home with me.

Now the YW are txting me wanting me to give them my DD's phone number... ummm, no. I set our info to "private" on lds.org. Another 'friend' txted inviting kids to go with them on a temple baptism trip... again... no...

... and so the struggle for the kids begins... any advice from those who have been there, done that?

one step forward, two steps back. Friday night I kicked back with DH with fermented black and green tea - his choice - he picked it out at the store, and we drank it together Fri night... then Sunday, he's stomping around all TBM again? I told him a few of the reasons I left, and he said I was being prideful (to not like polygamy, and not agree with patriarchal hierarchy)... God gave women this role because women needed to be taught 'humility' - yes, that was said :( then yelling at my little DD...

how can people be so nice one moment, you think you are making progress, and then ... backslide ... like major backslide...

peaceful meditation, calming music, I've learned a long time ago to tune out what does not bring happiness, I am really good at ignoring people when they try to hurt me, but when they try to hurt my kids? their own father hurting them? ugh such an evil church, I mean just pure evil.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:58 am

I feel the pain of both sides here. After my divorce I doubled down on the TBM side as my X had her name removed before her church court because of her adultery. I had a few desperate attempts to try and keep them in but ultimately my X won and they had no more interest in church. There was a lot of tension over it for a while but I decided my relationship with my kids was more important than the church. That's not an easy decision to make because it goes against what the church demands in loyalty. That cogdis is actually the catalyst that helped me start to do more research and ask more questions that eventually got me out.

I wish your DH could see how awesome my relationship is with my kids and steps kids, now that the church is no longer in the middle of it. I think he's lashing out because it's tearing him apart inside, his loyalty to TSCC and the guilt he feels if he does not keep the kids in. Sounds like he's got some serious cogdis pain in his brain right now. What helped my DW, as I was the one to step off the good ship zion first, was to spend more weekends away from church, taking the kids or just us out to on adventures, just little day trips to the mountains or deserts to shoot photos and find cool rocks. She began to recognize how much better we felt at the end of our weekends by not going to church. Also, I doubled down on being a good husband and dad and ultimately, our love trumped the church and allowed us to escape.

Good on you for not giving out that phone number! I remember as we tried to slip into inactivity, we got on the project list and they really started harassing us. Which, was also the catalyst to me finally writing out the resignation email to stop all of it.

I guess I'd try to find a loving way to tell your DH he has a choice between following the church or what Jesus taught, because there's a big difference. There wasn't much different when Jesus was the god of the old testament, that guy was a grumpy vindictive dude! And isn't that reflective of where parents end up when they try to make their kids conform to the strange corporate way? Why the hell does TSCC insist on obedience over love? And they try to twist it to make it sound like it's not love unless you are forcing compliance!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Angel
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by Angel » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:21 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:58 am
I feel the pain of both sides here. After my divorce I doubled down on the TBM side as my X had her name removed before her church court because of her adultery. I had a few desperate attempts to try and keep them in but ultimately my X won and they had no more interest in church. There was a lot of tension over it for a while but I decided my relationship with my kids was more important than the church. That's not an easy decision to make because it goes against what the church demands in loyalty. That cogdis is actually the catalyst that helped me start to do more research and ask more questions that eventually got me out.

I wish your DH could see how awesome my relationship is with my kids and steps kids, now that the church is no longer in the middle of it. I think he's lashing out because it's tearing him apart inside, his loyalty to TSCC and the guilt he feels if he does not keep the kids in. Sounds like he's got some serious cogdis pain in his brain right now. What helped my DW, as I was the one to step off the good ship zion first, was to spend more weekends away from church, taking the kids or just us out to on adventures, just little day trips to the mountains or deserts to shoot photos and find cool rocks. She began to recognize how much better we felt at the end of our weekends by not going to church. Also, I doubled down on being a good husband and dad and ultimately, our love trumped the church and allowed us to escape.

Good on you for not giving out that phone number! I remember as we tried to slip into inactivity, we got on the project list and they really started harassing us. Which, was also the catalyst to me finally writing out the resignation email to stop all of it.

I guess I'd try to find a loving way to tell your DH he has a choice between following the church or what Jesus taught, because there's a big difference. There wasn't much different when Jesus was the god of the old testament, that guy was a grumpy vindictive dude! And isn't that reflective of where parents end up when they try to make their kids conform to the strange corporate way? Why the hell does TSCC insist on obedience over love? And they try to twist it to make it sound like it's not love unless you are forcing compliance!
Thanks RubinHighlander - it is good to remember "as they are now, I once was". I can mentally compartmentalize it - tell myself "it's not my DH talking, it's the TSCC talking" when conversations get like that.

My kids were abused by a bishopric member (who is now in jail the rest of their life without probation)... so this is especially triggering for me.

I need to figure out how to talk him into some kind of 50/50 compromise - like I will go to church with him 50% if he will stay home with kids and let us do something fun on Sunday 50% ... I've burned enough bridges I do not want to go to church, but I would do that if he would agree to weekend outings half the time.

RS Pres - emailed letting them know I do NOT want any minister-teaching routes or to be assigned to anyone, and I also do NOT want any of my kids assigned to routes. The kids are not to be in any "interview" situations, not left with any adults without two-deep leadership etc. no adults are to txt them if I am not in the group message as well etc. etc.

YW - emailed letting them know the same, not to come looking for us if we did not show up to something, that we did not want to be a project family. One of the leaders has taken it upon herself to attend all the kids football games, concerts, school activities - she goes around stalking all the YW - asked me for a schedule of my kids events so she could attend everything... ugh... get away from my kids you stalker!!!

Bishopric - multiple emails outlining boundaries they are not to give my kids blessings, or set them apart, or pull them aside for counseling, or any of that BS unless I am in the room with them. ... then I catch them pulling the kids aside - have to yell at them again to back off...

It is not just Sundays - it is institute (they are constantly tired, behind on HW - and I blame institute), and Wed night chaos - ugh!!! The kids like hanging out with their friends, at least 2/3 are taking a non-denominational approach to it all. I really do think there are destructive anti-intellectual exclusionary warped sexist crap being forced into them every time they go to something.

TSCC has abused my kids, they are now trying to steal them away and teach the kids that I am the evil one for leaving church, trying to set everyone against me, portraying me as an overly paranoid apostate...

Trying to stay calm, and just keep swimming...
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Emower
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by Emower » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:22 pm

I think you are doing good setting those boundaries, but I think you possibly need to do it with the kids as well. Presidencies change, details get forgotten, and until you are off the rolls there is still that chance. I don't have any good suggestions for doing that. Sorry. my kids are all quite young.

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moksha
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by moksha » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:06 pm

Angel wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:22 pm
Friday night I kicked back with DH with fermented black and green tea - his choice - he picked it out at the store, and we drank it together Fri night... then Sunday, he's stomping around all TBM again?
Even the best tea can only keep the TBM spirit down for so long. When they start their stomping phase, it is time to get out the dart gun and fill it with 30 ccs of the Milk of Human Kindness. That can stop even a bull TBM in its tracks.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Just This Guy
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:33 am

I've been trying to figure this out since the thread started, but I'm missing something.

What does "MFM" stand for?
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:09 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:33 am
I've been trying to figure this out since the thread started, but I'm missing something.

What does "MFM" stand for?
Mixed-faith marriage, I believe, but someone can correct this if wrong.

This is a tough situation, Angel. In many ways, I'm glad my kids were a lot older when I went through my faith transition, we didn't have to do a lot of negotiating on ways to parent as a result. So I don't have a lot of personal experience to draw on to help you with this. Other than the fact that Sis M was ALWAYS far more orthodox than me, I was always the more liberal one, so we did have the normal negotiations to do on standards - to which I would say that the more involved spouse usually seems to get their way.

The one thing I would suggest is to just keep harping on free agency, that everybody in the house has freedom to choose what they want to do. As much as Mormons talk about what a great gift agency is, they don't really believe in it. They like control better. However, you then just need to then accept what your kids do - if they want t be active members, that is their choice, and you have to deal with it. All my kids are active, but at least they are not as fundamentalist as their mother - well, at least as fundamentalist as she USED to be. And at this point, I'll take it gladly. That way, we can all talk about the church, I can slam it, we all laugh except for Sis M, and move on. That's enough for me, at this point. But your kids are younger, so I'm sure you are way more invested in making sure they don't get sucked into a controlling/shaming culture. So I certainly wish you well as you navigate these issues, they are surely difficult ones.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Just This Guy
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:02 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:09 am
Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:33 am
I've been trying to figure this out since the thread started, but I'm missing something.

What does "MFM" stand for?
Mixed-faith marriage, I believe, but someone can correct this if wrong.
Thanks.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:52 am

Angel wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:21 pm

My kids were abused by a bishopric member (who is now in jail the rest of their life without probation)... so this is especially triggering for me.

Bishopric - multiple emails outlining boundaries they are not to give my kids blessings, or set them apart, or pull them aside for counseling, or any of that BS unless I am in the room with them. ... then I catch them pulling the kids aside - have to yell at them again to back off...

TSCC has abused my kids, they are now trying to steal them away and teach the kids that I am the evil one for leaving church, trying to set everyone against me, portraying me as an overly paranoid apostate...
Jeez, I didn't read this when I first commented. You are DEFINITELY invested in keeping your kids safe, and surely your DH can see how triggering this is - if he doesn't, maybe some therapy for him is in order? He really needs to see what needs to be done to keep his kids safe. What a tough situation, and surely the bishopric can see that interviews are triggering, given the past with your children? What a mess with them too. Do what you need to do to keep your kids safe, you're in the right on this one.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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alas
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by alas » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:13 pm

I suspect that he lashed out at you because of his own guilty conscience over the tea.

But, the sexist bullpucky should not be left to stand. I would wait a few days, then bring up what he said and ask him if he was just angry or if he really feels that way. If he says he does, then tell him women learn humility through pregnancy and childbirth, just like God planned and men learn humility by their wife giving them a swift kick in the crotch when they start thinking they are better than women. Then ask him if he needs to learn some more humility, or if he is going to stop the 1800s type thinking.

OK, maybe the first part of the above paragraph, but not the last, but I would talk to him because if that is how he truly feels, that is some serious misogyny.

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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by crossmyheart » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:09 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:58 am
I think he's lashing out because it's tearing him apart inside, his loyalty to TSCC and the guilt he feels if he does not keep the kids in. Sounds like he's got some serious cogdis pain in his brain right now. What helped my DW, as I was the one to step off the good ship zion first, was to spend more weekends away from church, taking the kids or just us out to on adventures, just little day trips to the mountains or deserts to shoot photos and find cool rocks. She began to recognize how much better we felt at the end of our weekends by not going to church. Also, I doubled down on being a good husband and dad and ultimately, our love trumped the church and allowed us to escape.
This was really insightful. I have the same issue with my beer drinking TBM DH. He wants the kids to stay in and reap all of the good- but is conflicted because he really likes second Saturday. We have started to have fewer sacrament meetings and more family adventures recently. But every now and then he breaks out the TBM and tries to get back in line. I think he is trying to find a way to have both, but is leaning more and more to NOMish as time goes on. Our kids are a little more on the quirky side than the ken and barbie image in YW/YM- and I think he is realizing they will never fit in, but are doing just fine without the church.

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jfro18
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by jfro18 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:16 pm

I just caught up on this thread - so sorry you're experiencing the whiplash here. I do like Alas' idea to bring it up and ask if it was just an angry outburst or something deeper, because while it's important to set boundaries it's also important (and in my opinion more difficult) to get honest expectations and beliefs of both sides in order to set those boundaries.

Hopefully it was just a bad day and nothing more underneath - it could very well be guilt of everything going on or the tea or just fear that the foundation the church appeared to give is now showing cracks.

the kids in MFM thing is going to be hitting here again I would imagine hard in the next year, so I've got not real advice there since I'm yet to really tackle it fully. Just sending good vibes for you with it!

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Angel
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by Angel » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:31 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:33 am
I've been trying to figure this out since the thread started, but I'm missing something.

What does "MFM" stand for?
Mixed faith marriage :) am I the first to use that abbreviation? Haha
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Angel
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by Angel » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:46 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:09 am
Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:33 am
I've been trying to figure this out since the thread started, but I'm missing something.

What does "MFM" stand for?
Mixed-faith marriage, I believe, but someone can correct this if wrong.

This is a tough situation, Angel. In many ways, I'm glad my kids were a lot older when I went through my faith transition, we didn't have to do a lot of negotiating on ways to parent as a result. So I don't have a lot of personal experience to draw on to help you with this. Other than the fact that Sis M was ALWAYS far more orthodox than me, I was always the more liberal one, so we did have the normal negotiations to do on standards - to which I would say that the more involved spouse usually seems to get their way.

The one thing I would suggest is to just keep harping on free agency, that everybody in the house has freedom to choose what they want to do. As much as Mormons talk about what a great gift agency is, they don't really believe in it. They like control better. However, you then just need to then accept what your kids do - if they want t be active members, that is their choice, and you have to deal with it. All my kids are active, but at least they are not as fundamentalist as their mother - well, at least as fundamentalist as she USED to be. And at this point, I'll take it gladly. That way, we can all talk about the church, I can slam it, we all laugh except for Sis M, and move on. That's enough for me, at this point. But your kids are younger, so I'm sure you are way more invested in making sure they don't get sucked into a controlling/shaming culture. So I certainly wish you well as you navigate these issues, they are surely difficult ones.
Free agency is such an important concept, and I have been bringing it up. To have freedom they at least need to know what their choices are, and you cannot get a TBM to read anything that is not church approved.

I tried giving them examples - such as; If your local grocery store only sold GM food from Monsonto, and told you to only read Monsonto publications because what would anyone else know about the kind of food they produced? etc. etc. or only read news from one News organization, or only watch movies from one film recording studio etc. etc.

When they cannot argue with logic - and they can't - you just see that hard stubborn look come over their face... ugh.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Angel
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Re: Kids in MFM

Post by Angel » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:52 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:16 pm
I just caught up on this thread - so sorry you're experiencing the whiplash here. I do like Alas' idea to bring it up and ask if it was just an angry outburst or something deeper, because while it's important to set boundaries it's also important (and in my opinion more difficult) to get honest expectations and beliefs of both sides in order to set those boundaries.

Hopefully it was just a bad day and nothing more underneath - it could very well be guilt of everything going on or the tea or just fear that the foundation the church appeared to give is now showing cracks.

the kids in MFM thing is going to be hitting here again I would imagine hard in the next year, so I've got not real advice there since I'm yet to really tackle it fully. Just sending good vibes for you with it!
I was able to talk them out of wed night and Thursday night activities this week - so relieved, because wed night was some temple thing that everyone was supposed to attend as a family, and Thursday was another temple thing with the "you are not a family if you are not a temple family" garbage.

Gearing up for another Sunday... wish us luck this week, send all the good vibes you can over here!
Thanks for giving me a place to vent.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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