Marriage counseling?

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Red Ryder
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Marriage counseling?

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:41 am

Has anyone been through marriage counseling with a therapist to work through mixed faith marriage issues? I have a few questions:

How did you discuss your disaffection with spouse and therapist? Did you explain the issues that caused you to lose faith? Or only focus on how losing your faith made you feel?

How did the therapist focus the sessions? On compromise and learning to accept differences or on rebuilding faith (assuming an LDS therapist)?

Did it help you and your spouse?

What advice would you give to someone just starting couples therapy?
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alas
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by alas » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:11 pm

I would advise a neutral counselor. That means if wife is Mormon and hubby is agnostic, you find a Catholic. Not another who doesn't believe in God, and not another Mormon. An LDS counselor is too often unable to see outside of their own world view, and the unbeliever can feel or actually be ganged up on. For a good believing Mormon, the way to solve your marital problems is for unbelieving hubby to quit lying about his use of porn, because nobody stops believing unless they want to sin.

But check out the person's reputation. Some can be LDS and still fully respect your position. Others just are not able to. (I worked for a while at Catholic Family Services and everyone assumed I shared their world view and I managed to pass as Catholic by respecting their beliefs) a GOOD counselor can work with your values and help the two parties compromise and learn to respect their differences. A lousy one can't seem to get out of their own world view.

Don't be afraid to try one and if they are a bad fit, don't go back, but look for another. The two of you need to be comfortable and able to discuss any or everything in front of this person. What in the business jargon is called "rapport" is the most important factor in counseling, not their degree, not their methods, but rapport between you two and them. So, don't worry about psychology, social worker, marriage counselor, so much. The person's personality is most important, and a good counselor will understand that.

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Batman
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by Batman » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:02 am

Good suggestions alas. I have brought up the possibility of going to counseling with DW, but she said she would only do it with an LDS counselor. I am not sure I want to subject myself to that if the therapist/counselor can't see my point of view. I know DW would like them to know exactly why belief and faith in the church is such a big deal. I have not pursued anything since that conversation. I might rethink it in the future if things go south.

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Not Buying It
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:27 am

Batman wrote:Good suggestions alas. I have brought up the possibility of going to counseling with DW, but she said she would only do it with an LDS counselor. I am not sure I want to subject myself to that if the therapist/counselor can't see my point of view. I know DW would like them to know exactly why belief and faith in the church is such a big deal. I have not pursued anything since that conversation. I might rethink it in the future if things go south.
You know, I try to remain calm, but it really upsets me the way that believing spouses refuse to see a therapist who isn't LDS. They are so afraid their issues won't be understood, that they will find their beliefs under attack - but they are more than willing to put their spouse in a therapeutic situation where it happens to them. You'd think it would be obvious that a neutral therapist is the only fair approach, but no. So often you end up at LDS Social Services, and some of their therapists are as neutral as can be expected under the circumstances, but certainly not all of them. Heck, the Church is giving them their paycheck, you can only expect so much neutral from them.

But then, that tends to be the believer's approach to anything. They are so sure that they are right and you are wrong, they always stack the deck against you and don't think twice about it. I sit through three hours of indoctrination about how wonderful the Church is every Sunday for my wife, but let me make one questioning comment and she freaks out. It is OK for her to subject me to her point of view several hours a week, but let me so much as even mention mine and all hell breaks loose. She is incredibly one-sided about things, and I don't think my experience is all that unique.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Obadiah_Dogberry
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by Obadiah_Dogberry » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:16 am

DW and I went to see Natasha Helfer Parker who is a very liberal and unorthordox member. She could speak DW's language, and understands Mormon culture. We don't live in the same area so we just met online.

For us she was very critical in the first year of my transition and really helped DW see a few things differently.

We didn't get into the details of why I didn't believe in the sessions, but Natasha did a good job at presenting some of them. For example, in one of the sessions we talked about how there is really a spectrum of belief, but often only the most orthodox members are vocal. She gave us three or four different examples of how somebody could "believe" in the BofM which Ranging from 100% belief, to nuanced, to disbelief with good morals. It was safer for DW to hear this from somebody else other than me.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:14 pm

Not Buying It wrote: You know, I try to remain calm, but it really upsets me the way that believing spouses refuse to see a therapist who isn't LDS. They are so afraid their issues won't be understood, that they will find their beliefs under attack - but they are more than willing to put their spouse in a therapeutic situation where it happens to them. You'd think it would be obvious that a neutral therapist is the only fair approach, but no. So often you end up at LDS Social Services, and some of their therapists are as neutral as can be expected under the circumstances, but certainly not all of them. Heck, the Church is giving them their paycheck, you can only expect so much neutral from them.

But then, that tends to be the believer's approach to anything. They are so sure that they are right and you are wrong, they always stack the deck against you and don't think twice about it. I sit through three hours of indoctrination about how wonderful the Church is every Sunday for my wife, but let me make one questioning comment and she freaks out. It is OK for her to subject me to her point of view several hours a week, but let me so much as even mention mine and all hell breaks loose. She is incredibly one-sided about things, and I don't think my experience is all that unique.
I think you and I commiserated about this on the old board. Sister M and I talked about this recently, about the need for me to be more balanced in how I view the church. I agreed, and asked if she could. For example, could we miss one Sunday a month to do some family activities, rather than going to church. This, apparently, is not negotiable. At least she conceded that she was not being balanced in her approach as she gave it some thought. This acknowlegement is all I wanted, and it has stopped calls for my being more balanced. I will tell a further story along these lines when I'm ready, it's just too recent. But it is a challenge when you do need a referee, a neutral third party to work through some of the issues, but a believing church member is the first and only requirement for the TBM spouse. I'm not entirely confident in the LDS folks in this area, bless their hearts, that they would have my cold-hearted apostate views as part of their worldview for a successful marriage. That's why that route is closed. And that makes it a lot harder to work through these issues.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Deepthinker
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by Deepthinker » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:27 pm

RR, sorry I don't have advice for you, I haven't experienced this. I think others have provided some great counsel.

Just wanted to say that I hope it all goes well for both of you.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:58 pm

This is not about marriage counseling, but about seeing a therapist generally.

I saw a therapist off and on for a couple years for postpartum depression, knowing I had serious faith problems as well. The therapist was great for the PPD, and generally okay for matters of faith – but only generally. While she had helped many with problems of faith, she had never helped a Mormon through a faith crisis/transition and I found I spent more time trying to explain culture, history, doctrine etc. then receiving any meaningful feedback. I seriously felt I should have charged her for some of those sessions.

For example, one of her solutions for believing differently was to do some church shopping (find and attend a different Mormon ward). When I realized she knew nothing about garments I decided I needed to move on.

There are times I’ve really wanted to talk to someone, but I need to find someone else. Someone who understands Mormonism and speaks the language - someone who is objective (isn’t TBM/orthodox and tells me I’m sinning).

So my advice, if you seek a non-LDS therapist, make sure they have some kind of understanding of LDS doctrine, culture, etc. or it just may be a huge waste of time.

(I recently read an article about counseling on a college campus and this quote summed it up: “Ultimately it ended up feeling like I was trying to educate her on what being a Korean American was, more so than her helping me.” Yeah, exchange Korean American and Mormon, and that pretty much sums it up.)

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Not Buying It
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:19 am

Mormorrisey wrote:I think you and I commiserated about this on the old board.
Indeed we did! I hope someday we are both in a place where we don't have to.

Let me tell you a story that illustrates one of the potential issues of having an LDS marriage therapist. I know a fellow who is married to an LDS Social Services therapist. She works with LDS men who look at porn and cheat on their wives and stuff. Several months ago she discovered he had been secretly viewing porn for years. She kicked him out, he had to get an apartment, and she has been telling everyone in their family that he is a sex addict, and there is a good chance she is going to divorce him over it. He has given up porn completely since losing her, but she refuses to go to counseling with him. Now I don't mean to discount the pain that women experience when they discover their husband has been viewing porn, but as a therapist she should know better than to attach the label of "sex addict" to him. He didn't cheat on her, didn't go to strip clubs or anything, and as far as I can tell wasn't trying to get sex from anything that moves 24/7. From what he told me he is just a regular guy who likes sex a couple of times a week, and who finds porn tempting like a lot of men do. The label "sex addict" doesn't apply, and she should know better.

Now granted, she is heavily involved emotionally in the situation, but all the same, if she as a therapist doesn't know the difference between a normal sex drive and sexual addiction, and if she is seriously considering divorcing her husband because he looked at porn rather than work it out with him, it gives me pause about using LDS Social Services for counseling. There is a lack of perspective in that situation that I find concerning.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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fh451
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by fh451 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:04 am

Red Ryder wrote:Has anyone been through marriage counseling with a therapist to work through mixed faith marriage issues? I have a few questions:

How did you discuss your disaffection with spouse and therapist? Did you explain the issues that caused you to lose faith? Or only focus on how losing your faith made you feel?

How did the therapist focus the sessions? On compromise and learning to accept differences or on rebuilding faith (assuming an LDS therapist)?
My main advice would be to not be afraid of finding another therapist if the one you try isn't working for you (or your wife). There are good and bad therapists out there. DW and I went to an LDS therapist, but he wasn't part of LDSSS. Being LDS made DW more comfortable, and I wasn't afraid to let him know if he crossed any lines with me (but he really didn't that I recall). IMO he did a pretty good job in that he didn't spend any time on the church "issues" per se, and focused on communication skills and trying to get us to understand the other's point of view. Every marriage is going to have conflicts that will never be resolved, and you have to decide if they are deal breakers or if you can work with them. If you can work with them, what are going to be your coping strategies? So overall I think it helped - we're still together 13 years later!

It is kind of funny, though - on occasion DW has said something like "That therapist didn't really do anything, we just figured it out." I just smile and shrug - maybe, but as I said, we're still together and from my point of view that was far from assured before we first went to him.

Good luck!

fh451

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alas
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by alas » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:34 pm

fh451 wrote:
Red Ryder wrote:Has anyone been through marriage counseling with a therapist to work through mixed faith marriage issues? I have a few questions:

How did you discuss your disaffection with spouse and therapist? Did you explain the issues that caused you to lose faith? Or only focus on how losing your faith made you feel?

How did the therapist focus the sessions? On compromise and learning to accept differences or on rebuilding faith (assuming an LDS therapist)?
My main advice would be to not be afraid of finding another therapist if the one you try isn't working for you (or your wife). There are good and bad therapists out there. DW and I went to an LDS therapist, but he wasn't part of LDSSS. Being LDS made DW more comfortable, and I wasn't afraid to let him know if he crossed any lines with me (but he really didn't that I recall). IMO he did a pretty good job in that he didn't spend any time on the church "issues" per se, and focused on communication skills and trying to get us to understand the other's point of view. Every marriage is going to have conflicts that will never be resolved, and you have to decide if they are deal breakers or if you can work with them. If you can work with them, what are going to be your coping strategies? So overall I think it helped - we're still together 13 years later!

It is kind of funny, though - on occasion DW has said something like "That therapist didn't really do anything, we just figured it out." I just smile and shrug - maybe, but as I said, we're still together and from my point of view that was far from assured before we first went to him.

Good luck!

fh451
You had a good marriage counselor. The counselor's job isn't to fix your marriage. The counselor's job to to give you a safe environment and any tools you need to allow you two to fix your own marriage. The more the counselor actually does, the worse of a counselor they are. If they do all the work the marriage is already over. His job was to teach you skills and then back off and watch you work for a while, maybe interject with encouragement, but basically to allow the couple to figure out their own solutions. More of a coach than a surgeon. A surgeon puts you to sleep and fixes you. A good coach makes his players work and only comments on how they are doing. A bad coach grabs the ball and makes the touchdown.

So, for those looking for a good counselor, this is something to look for: a good marriage coach.

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AllieOop
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Re: Marriage counseling?

Post by AllieOop » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:21 pm

Red Ryder,
The only advise I have is to not go through the LDS social services marital counseling. Not that they aren't counselors who mean well, but they are completely under the control of the LDS leadership. I went through it and had no idea that all I shared was also shared with my Bishop. All the paperwork I signed, had me sign away my rights of confidentiality (I can give you a link to what is required to sign). The counselors that work for the church are also under strict watch by the leaders and are only allowed to advise certain things. It was a nightmare for me.

Just an FYI
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."

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