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Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:28 pm
by Angel
So, I was the first one out, 2/3 kids are now out, and hubbie is atheist? at least that is what he has been claiming - so surprise surprise, just out of habit I think - he said "ok, let's have a prayer" when we were all getting dinner tonight... so everyone looks at him strangely, but then we all gathered for prayer... :lol: ... we had been joking about the corona virus (I know, not funny).. so he prays "please protect us against the deadly corona virus :lol: and I busted out laughing, and he is grinning, and turns to the kids, and tells them I am going to die because I didn't properly participate in family prayer :lol:

ok - as horrible as mixed faith marriages can be - I know, I was in one for a bit - there can be light at the end of the tunnel guys. :lol:

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:11 pm
by RubinHighlander
Great story! We still pray when grandma comes for dinner, but it's sure a lot more fun when she's not there and we can party with all our adult kids. Sometimes we say mock prayers, like praise Jebus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. For a while I prayed with DW, even after we were out, just because it's so ingrained in us that it just felt weird not to for a while. But like me, she eventually became comfortable that there may be nothing out there or if there is, it's certainly not the white haired old bipolar psychotic we were raised to believe in.

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:08 pm
by Hagoth
Mrs. Hagoth still do a brief evening prayer. She's ok with the idea that I'm just expressing gratitude to The Big Everything.

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:20 pm
by Angel
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Mrs. Hagoth still do a brief evening prayer. She's ok with the idea that I'm just expressing gratitude to The Big Everything.
TBE, I like it. I have been going with "Loving God" - no gender, neutral enough to not be noticed, God is love, or there is no god for me :)

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:23 am
by Hagoth
Angel wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:20 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Mrs. Hagoth still do a brief evening prayer. She's ok with the idea that I'm just expressing gratitude to The Big Everything.
TBE, I like it. I have been going with "Loving God" - no gender, neutral enough to not be noticed, God is love, or there is no god for me :)
Just yesterday we had a discussion about how a real God would have to be at least as loving, forgiving, and supportive as the most loving, forgiving, and supportive person you have ever met, which doesn't describe that being in the Old Testament and Book of Mormon. I always say that I see scripture as man reaching out to God, not the other way around, which is why the god of scripture is male and made in our image.

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:37 pm
by Angel
Hagoth wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:23 am
Angel wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:20 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Mrs. Hagoth still do a brief evening prayer. She's ok with the idea that I'm just expressing gratitude to The Big Everything.
TBE, I like it. I have been going with "Loving God" - no gender, neutral enough to not be noticed, God is love, or there is no god for me :)
Just yesterday we had a discussion about how a real God would have to be at least as loving, forgiving, and supportive as the most loving, forgiving, and supportive person you have ever met, which doesn't describe that being in the Old Testament and Book of Mormon. I always say that I see scripture as man reaching out to God, not the other way around, which is why the god of scripture is male and made in our image.
Yes - either God is loving, merciful, and just, or there is no God at all. Either way, no one has anything to worry about.

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:25 pm
by Hagoth
Angel wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:37 pm
- either God is loving, merciful, and just, or there is no God at all. Either way, no one has anything to worry about.
Except that there are billions of people who seem just fine with a cruel, vengeful God, and we have to live among those people.

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:17 am
by Angel
Hagoth wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:25 pm
Angel wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:37 pm
- either God is loving, merciful, and just, or there is no God at all. Either way, no one has anything to worry about.
Except that there are billions of people who seem just fine with a cruel, vengeful God, and we have to live among those people.
If there is a loving God, suffering has to be justified- I suppose the best answer is a greater appreciation for good... including a better appreciation of forgiveness and of a merciful God...

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:35 am
by Hagoth
Angel wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:17 am
If there is a loving God, suffering has to be justified- I suppose the best answer is a greater appreciation for good... including a better appreciation of forgiveness and of a merciful God...
It would be comforting to believe that, even if God pours out suffering in this life, he will be merciful in the next. But that is not really what most people believe. Most hope for mercy for themselves and other properly-vetted adherents and assume terrible outcomes for everyone else. I heard an Evangelical say that the reason heaven will be so sweet for him will be his assurance that most of mankind is suffering in hell. I asked a very kind and devout Muslim what she believes about the afterlife and she said she's terrified to think about it. She referenced a story in an Islamic commentary (I forget the name) about someone who found themselves in hell because they had not offered food to a hungry cat.

I hope I will be pleasantly surprised by a loving and merciful God when I die. I know my mother and father would still want the best for me, even though I lost my faith in the church. I hope God, if there is one, would be as considerate.

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:33 am
by Angel
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:35 am
Angel wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:17 am
If there is a loving God, suffering has to be justified- I suppose the best answer is a greater appreciation for good... including a better appreciation of forgiveness and of a merciful God...
It would be comforting to believe that, even if God pours out suffering in this life, he will be merciful in the next. But that is not really what most people believe. Most hope for mercy for themselves and other properly-vetted adherents and assume terrible outcomes for everyone else. I heard an Evangelical say that the reason heaven will be so sweet for him will be his assurance that most of mankind is suffering in hell. I asked a very kind and devout Muslim what she believes about the afterlife and she said she's terrified to think about it. She referenced a story in an Islamic commentary (I forget the name) about someone who found themselves in hell because they had not offered food to a hungry cat.

I hope I will be pleasantly surprised by a loving and merciful God when I die. I know my mother and father would still want the best for me, even though I lost my faith in the church. I hope God, if there is one, would be as considerate.
Here is another speculation and justification if one is to believe in God - IF there is a loving God, why all the different groups? Why the "tower of babble", why the divisions? ... I guess one could ask why capitalism sort of works... competition is a good motivator... if you want selfish lazy people to do anything good, you have to set up a competitive system where people are trying to be holier than others or nothing good would ever be done... of course the ultimate goal would be for people to be good all on their own for goodness sake, but starting habits has to start somewhere??

ok, it's getting harder and harder to justify a loving God :( :(

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:27 am
by Hagoth
Angel wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:33 am
Here is another speculation and justification if one is to believe in God - IF there is a loving God, why all the different groups? Why the "tower of babble", why the divisions? ... I guess one could ask why capitalism sort of works... competition is a good motivator... if you want selfish lazy people to do anything good, you have to set up a competitive system where people are trying to be holier than others or nothing good would ever be done... of course the ultimate goal would be for people to be good all on their own for goodness sake, but starting habits has to start somewhere??

ok, it's getting harder and harder to justify a loving God :( :(
But it doesn't necessarily rule out a concept of God, it just means that people reinvent God in their own image as a device for getting what they want, or as a rock to throw at people who aren't exactly like them. If you put aside a personal God that is made in our image for something bigger and less comprehensible to human brains, and if that God encompasses all of nature, including us, then that God is as loving and as forgiving as we are. I know, not a "loving Heavenly Father," but it's the best I am able to do, given the evidence. You have to start believing a concept more like Tao or Brahman, or the God of Spinoza. And you have to embrace the fact that you may never find your keys.

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:07 pm
by Angel
Hagoth wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:27 am
Angel wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:33 am
Here is another speculation and justification if one is to believe in God - IF there is a loving God, why all the different groups? Why the "tower of babble", why the divisions? ... I guess one could ask why capitalism sort of works... competition is a good motivator... if you want selfish lazy people to do anything good, you have to set up a competitive system where people are trying to be holier than others or nothing good would ever be done... of course the ultimate goal would be for people to be good all on their own for goodness sake, but starting habits has to start somewhere??

ok, it's getting harder and harder to justify a loving God :( :(
But it doesn't necessarily rule out a concept of God, it just means that people reinvent God in their own image as a device for getting what they want, or as a rock to throw at people who aren't exactly like them. If you put aside a personal God that is made in our image for something bigger and less comprehensible to human brains, and if that God encompasses all of nature, including us, then that God is as loving and as forgiving as we are. I know, not a "loving Heavenly Father," but it's the best I am able to do, given the evidence. You have to start believing a concept more like Tao or Brahman, or the God of Spinoza. And you have to embrace the fact that you may never find your keys.
The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao - I do think there is something within the tao te ching :)

Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:24 pm
by Hagoth
Angel wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:07 pm
The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao - I do think there is something within the tao te ching :)
"The gate to all mystery."