Garments tied to fidelity?

[Red Ryder]

I'm trying to tease a few ideas around in my head and solidify my thoughts before our next therapy session.

In Mormonism, celestial marriage (the one spouse version of today) in the temple is the most important goal of a returned missionary and his future bride. I was counseled by my mission president to not delay marriage, to find a woman to be spiritually compatible, to have children, and live happily ever after (while attending weekly church, meetings, callings, going to school, working full time, paying 10%, and wearing garments for the rest of your life).

Temple marriage and garments have become a co-dependent form of commitment to the church and to each spouse. Or better yet, the celestial threesome marriage of one man, one woman, and one church (that claims to represent God).

In the context of a temple marriage, is it appropriate to conclude that if one spouse removes the garment from their body, that the other spouse should feel betrayed? Is this betrayal the same as infidelity? Obviously, taking off the garments is a blatant rejection of the commitment to the endowment. But should it be considered a blatant rejection of the temple marriage?

For me personally it's not. I still hold my marriage commitment sacred. I still hold the idea of being together for eternity sacred. Although I don't worry about the details of the after life (if it exists) like I used to. It's a nice idea that helps me stay focused on unity as a couple and mutual respect even when one of us farts too much.

Yet, in retrospect I think removing my garments has created a sense of betrayal that has evolved into symptoms of? I don't know the word without getting too deep into the details which I'm purposely avoiding. I think the loss of my faith in her eyes, coupled with removing the fundy undies has created a deep level of resentment with detachment on emotional and intimate levels. Maybe we've been at an impasse for too long.

Has anyone else struggled with a spouse in a similar matter?

[Deepthinker]

In the context of a temple marriage, is it appropriate to conclude that if one spouse removes the garment from their body, that the other spouse should feel betrayed? Is this betrayal the same as infidelity? Obviously, taking off the garments is a blatant rejection of the commitment to the endowment. But should it be considered a blatant rejection of the temple marriage?

For me personally it's not. I still hold my marriage commitment sacred. I still hold the idea of being together for eternity sacred. Although I don't worry about the details of the after life (if it exists) like I used to. It's a nice idea that helps me stay focused on unity as a couple and mutual respect even when one of us farts too much.

Yet, in retrospect I think removing my garments has created a sense of betrayal that has involved into symptoms of? I don't know the word without getting too deep into the details which I'm purposely avoiding. I think the loss of my faith in her eyes, coupled with removing the fundy undies has created a deep level of resentment with detachment on emotional and intimate levels. Maybe we've been at an impasse for too long.

Has anyone else struggled with a spouse in a similar matter?

I haven't personally experienced this with my spouse. At least, not yet. Not sure if what I say will help or not.

My opinion is that from the TBM mindset, it can definitely be seen as a betrayal of the temple marriage commitment. The strongest commitments that I think are stressed the most in a temple marriage is the commitment to keep all the laws and ordinances of the LDS religion.

Separating the commitments to your spouse in the temple from the commitments you make to the church is difficult for a TBM mindset. All you commit in the temple to each other is to receive her to be your wife and she gives herself to you as her husband. The rest of the commitments you make are to church-related stuff.

The way I see things now, I don't see it as a betrayal of your commitment to her as your wife.

[document]

I did not remove my garments for a number of years because my spouse saw it as an act of betrayal on the level of infidelity. When I found out that my spouse was having an affair, I had to equivocate the two (infidelity and not wearing the garment) in order to justify removing my garments from then out.

[Corsair]

As usual, I may once again represent the fount of bad ideas and pontificating. We don't want to frame problems with our spouse as a conflict nor necessarily cast our spouse as an opponent. But at least we should understand what we are up against. Let's be clear that while it may take two to Tango, it only takes one side to start a conflict. The problem is that the bad guy in this conflict is neither your nor your wife. It is 186 years of insular hero worship in the LDS church and the conflict with your wife is a proxy battle, much like Vietnam and Korea were proxy wars between the United States and Communist China.

One advantage you start with is that your wife is amenable to talking about these issues with a third-party with clinical training. I have not been able to get my wife to get to this point (yet...). I would say that the initial challenge will be to get your wife and/or the therapist to establish the firm benefits and justification for garments. Don't be led into being the cretin justifying why you removed them. As Sun Tzu wisely posited in "The Art of War", force your opponent to occupy difficult ground. The difficult ground you may be forced to occupy is that you ideally want to maintain a good relationship with your wife. But this may be accomplished by having your wife define the blessings and obligation of the garment. Epistemology and Socratic dialog are good allies in this discussion. But even getting your wife to define her moral beliefs is not the goal either.

While she is carefully being led into the garment discussion, don't take your eyes off the ultimate goal of communication of your real beliefs and a greater respect of what your individual beliefs actually are. Openly having a happy mixed-faith marriage is objectively preferable to having this closeted affair with unbelief. Could you live happily with a wife that graciously lets you exist as a beloved unbeliever? Could you as the apostate love your believing wife and maintain your marriage in these circumstances? Garments are only a symbolic battle in this conflict. Whether or not you wear them is not the actual issue.

There are two other negotiating principles that should be employed in these discussions. First is to identify the "BATNA". This is the "Best Alternative To No Agreement". Figure out what having "no agreement" looks like and don't let your negotiation end up being worse than the BATNA option. Second, the painful reality is that whoever is most willing to walk away has all the power in a negotiation. This is a nuclear option but it would be dishonest for virtually any marriage partner to claim it has not been considered.

Good luck, soldier. You didn't start this conflict even though you are accused of doing so. But maybe you can still work towards cease fire.

[Linked]

I have not yet removed my garments to avoid this possibility with my wife; along with living in the MorCor and having all TBM family and many TBM friends with whom I share a good relationship that I am not ready to rock. I have made it very clear to my wife that I no longer believe in the church AT ALL, and that there is very little chance of that changing. This led to a lot of resentment, a dead sex life, and some frank discussions of divorce and whether or not that would be best. We did some therapy and she hated it a lot, though it seemed to help a little bit.

Since then things have turned around a bit. Our relationship is better now than it has ever been since we had our first kid 6 years ago. There are a few things I would consider keys to that which may apply to your garments issues.

1 - She knows exactly where I am with the church and spiritually, and she has had to confront it.
2 - I made it clear that my rejection of the church is not a rejection of my love for her or commitment to our family, and have redoubled my efforts to be a good spouse and father.
3 - We have discussed the real issues in our marriage - money, her feeling like I am a 3rd child for her to care for, the sex has not been great
4 - I have made real effort based on the discussions of the real issues

I am sure you have your own way to deal with stuff, but this has seemed effective so far. If I'm divorced next year I'll let you know so you can ignore this. One thing that has been helpful in a couple ways is the "Ask a Mormon Sex Therapist" episodes of the Rational Faiths podcast. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is the sex therapist and she tries to help mormon people accept sexuality as a method of doing good for each other and themselves. Sprinkled in there is a clear message of owning your decisions and not looking to the church to tell you what is acceptable. Also she mentioned that people should not get frustrated about something their spouse does until they have made it clear what they want. I.e. don't get mad that your spouse isn't helping with the dishes more until you have brought it up in open and mature conversation.

This was longer than it was supposed to be. Sorry if it was not what you were looking for.

[didyoumythme]

Removal of garments is a rejection of the temple, not marriage. Maybe your relationship was defined almost exclusively by the church? I would expect this to be a common situation. You may need to spend some time getting to know each other again if you no longer have beliefs in common.

[Dravin]

Removal of garments is a rejection of the temple, not marriage. Maybe your relationship was defined almost exclusively by the church? I would expect this to be a common situation. You may need to spend some time getting to know each other again if you no longer have beliefs in common.

I know for my wife this was the case. Even as a TBM I didn't wholly define marriage via the temple/church/god, but when I left the church I found out my wife did. Since she was a member, as was I when we dated, she just assumed my perspective on marriage was the same. For her there was a very real period of, "So what is our marriage?" since we were married, she wasn't looking for a divorce (thankfully), but obviously defining our marriage by our (emphasis on the plural) relationship with the temple, the church, and god in general was something she had to reexamine.

[Lady_Macbeth]

I wish I had something helpful to contribute, I had a positive experience with my spouse. I thought the garments were tied to temple marriage but my husband ties the garments to the temple endowment, but not the marriage. After he could see I was still so depressed after being so open with him about my unbelief we had a really good conversation about how to be happier. I told him that I needed to not wear garments - what they meant to me was so depressing that I put off showering for days just to avoid pulling a new pair out of my drawer. He said he wouldn't judge me for not wearing them anymore as long as I didn't judge him for continuing to wear his. I went out that night and bought all new undies and not a single pair was white.

I was still difficult for a little while, I wouldn't change in front of him and even put off showering until he wasn't home because I was so worried about what he was thinking. But after months and months (and months) of no comments about garments/undies either way, just a few days ago he actually said 'Ohhhh, sexy undies.' Just him saying that made me feel sooooo much better about where we are now.

[Not Buying It]

You all realize we are having a conversation about underwear, right? Underwear. Whenever the members in my life try to make the Church sound normal I remind myself of the crazy that I wear under my clothes 24/7, and it brings things back into focus real fast.

[moksha]

A case could be made for superhero footed pajamas. Who is going to fool around when wearing those pajamas?