Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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stuck
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Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by stuck » Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:23 am

My wife called me Mark Hoffman after we watched Murder Among the Mormons. Later I told her that that offended me and later she apologized. She said that I was more honest before my faith crisis/transition (8 years ago). Now she says I am dishonest with her like I believe the church is dishonest with its members.
What to do? I told her we need to discuss how we can make compromises because we are now in a mixed faith marriage. I have been hiding things from her like drinking coffee and tea, listening to Mormon stories and the like, taking off garment top when it gets too hot at work, and being somewhat active on this website. Is any of this bad or illegal? No.
We have discussed coffee drinking before and she feels it makes me unworthy to use the priesthood. However, I checked the handbook and if you are not committing serious sins then you can use the priesthood except in confirmation after baptism (can still stand in circle) and ordaining others to the melchizedek priesthood. I did some other research like benefits of drinking coffee and quotes by general authorities about why it’s ok to look at both sides of an argument like J. Reuben Clark’s quote, If we have truth, [it] cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed."
Has anyone been successful at making these types of compromises before and if so how did you do it?
Thanks,

stuck
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by stuck » Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:26 am

Hopefully sharing some of this stuff with her that I researched will help her compromise on some of these things. Mixed faith relationships are hard right? I guess we just have to make the best of it to keep our families together and be like Red Ryder and focus on things other than church.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:51 pm

stuck wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:26 am
Hopefully sharing some of this stuff with her that I researched will help her compromise on some of these things. Mixed faith relationships are hard right? I guess we just have to make the best of it to keep our families together and be like Red Ryder and focus on things other than church.
You mean Corsair! He’s the ultimate indifferent Mormon we all shall become. :lol:

In most mixed faith marriages, there is no compromise. Only disappointment.

For us, we’ve focused on similar core values. I don’t rob, steal, murder, adulterate, or use too much conditioner in the shower and life is good.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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jfro18
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by jfro18 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:04 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:51 pm
In most mixed faith marriages, there is no compromise. Only disappointment.
This comment should be a sticky on this board, because it really sums it up as well as you can and in bumper sticker length!

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Corsair
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by Corsair » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:27 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:51 pm
You mean Corsair! He’s the ultimate indifferent Mormon we all shall become. :lol:
I appreciate the title, but I was not aware that I might be in danger of being a role model.
stuck wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:23 am
Has anyone been successful at making these types of compromises before and if so how did you do it?
While I have had some success at joyful indifference, it helps that my wife has actually compromised a lot. No doubt it bothered her for a long time and still does. She still wants to go on a senior mission and that uncomfortable conversation with me has not taken place yet.

Of course, I don't express any anger at the church to her and I don't spend a lot of time in church material any longer. I did read a lot of Roman and early Christian history. Then I read a bunch of Protestant and European history. I was left with wondering what the LDS church possibly might have to offer other than their basic social structure. Doctrine, authority, and history just fall apart in an honest comparison with the rest of Christianity. Mormons are Christian, but I just don't see a situation where they hold all the Christian authority with their general ignorance of anything beyond the book of Acts or a cursory knowledge of the Protestant Reformation.

You are playing the long game. Maybe you did not hear that correctly. You are playing the looooooooooooooooooooooooooong game. Red Ryder is correct to focus on similar core values. Living like a basic Christian is not that hard. Take your tithing and find a worthy recipient for your offerings like a local food bank. Keep a stash of dollar bills in your car to hand out to people on the street. That's where your tithing will actually go far. Teach your children to be kind and follow Jesus.

Avoid talking about Joseph Smith or any person in the LDS hierarchy unless you are talking about some event or deed that any Christian would agree was a good idea. I shrug and accept that the Mormons in my life feel that God wants them to be Mormon while I don't feel that way. I dearly hope that my wife wants to stick with me on that point, but I would not force her to stick with "us" if she does not want to be with "me".

stuck
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by stuck » Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:37 am

Thanks for your response Corsair! By the way, have you listened to Bart Ehrman and what he thinks about Jesus? That he was an apocalyptic prophet? Anyway I tend to believe him. But I still think it's good to try to follow the good things that he taught.

Do you guys tend to believe that there is life after death or not? I'm not sure. I think it would be nice but I am aware that there is the possibility that there may not be and if that's the case, hopefully it will be how Socrates described like a very long sleep. (Sorry to get off topic, but I thought it would be interesting to hear what some of you think about this.)

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Red Ryder
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:30 pm

stuck wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:37 am
Do you guys tend to believe that there is life after death or not? I'm not sure. I think it would be nice but I am aware that there is the possibility that there may not be and if that's the case, hopefully it will be how Socrates described like a very long sleep. (Sorry to get off topic, but I thought it would be interesting to hear what some of you think about this.)
I believe (and hope) there is life after death. I no longer believe in the preconceived structure of heaven and hell. That’s the carrot and stick approach used by organized religion to bind you to belief in ______ (enter name of God here).

My hope is in a universally fun place where people can be reunited with their loved ones, be free of pain and suffering, and no need to worry if that dress makes you look fat.

Personally I like the idea of reincarnation or a cool water slide park. This life may have been a crazy slide, but I survived and can try another one of my choice.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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wtfluff
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by wtfluff » Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:39 pm

stuck wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:37 am
Do you guys tend to believe that there is life after death or not?
I'm partial to Roger Ebert's statement:
Roger Ebert wrote:I was perfectly content before I was born, and I think of death as the same state. What I am grateful for is the gift of intelligence, and for life, love, wonder, and laughter. You can't say it wasn't interesting. My lifetime's memories are what I have brought home from the trip.
I want nothing to do with any MORmON version of the afterlife.

Honestly, I haven't really heard of any version of afterlife that sounds too enticing. Eternity would likely get extremely boring after a few millennia.

Hey, look at that: Nihilism, It's what's for dinner. :roll:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Cnsl1
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by Cnsl1 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:23 am

I believe in a god and afterlife because I want to.

I figure that some things are just worth believing in, and at this point it doesn't really matter whether or not they're true. I don't believe because I know it's true, but because I hope it's true. I want to live after I die, remember my experiences, and be together with loved ones, so that's what I believe.

I don't want to be a missionary in the spirit prison. Surely that would be hell.

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Hagoth
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by Hagoth » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:55 pm

stuck wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:23 am
Has anyone been successful at making these types of compromises before and if so how did you do it?
Sorry I'm late to the party. I am in a mixed faith marriage that seems to be going very well. Like Corsair said, long game, but we have definitely moved beyond the horizon. I enjoy Coffee drinking in plain sight and normal, human underwear. And open discussion of things both faith-promoting and faith-challenging.

Unfortunately, I have an advantage that most do not. My wife was an adult convert to the church from a non-Christian family. She never bought into the indoctrination that people are good or bad based on whether or not they believe in angels with gold plates, because her family are very good people.

The latest surprise: Murder Among the Mormons piqued my wife's curiosity and she sought out and listened to the Mormon Stories Sandra Tanner interview with no nudging by me. Oh the times they are a' changin'.

My point is that miracles can happen, even if they happen slowly and don't involve special underwear and magical priesthood powers. Like the hands on a clock; a very slow clock that's been dipped in tar.

I doubt my wife will ever get to where I am but that's perfectly fine as long as we can maintain a fulcrum on which to balance.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Thoughtful
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by Thoughtful » Sun May 23, 2021 4:16 pm

stuck wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:23 am
My wife called me Mark Hoffman after we watched Murder Among the Mormons. Later I told her that that offended me and later she apologized. She said that I was more honest before my faith crisis/transition (8 years ago). Now she says I am dishonest with her like I believe the church is dishonest with its members.
What to do? I told her we need to discuss how we can make compromises because we are now in a mixed faith marriage. I have been hiding things from her like drinking coffee and tea, listening to Mormon stories and the like, taking off garment top when it gets too hot at work, and being somewhat active on this website. Is any of this bad or illegal? No.
We have discussed coffee drinking before and she feels it makes me unworthy to use the priesthood. However, I checked the handbook and if you are not committing serious sins then you can use the priesthood except in confirmation after baptism (can still stand in circle) and ordaining others to the melchizedek priesthood. I did some other research like benefits of drinking coffee and quotes by general authorities about why it’s ok to look at both sides of an argument like J. Reuben Clark’s quote, If we have truth, [it] cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed."
Has anyone been successful at making these types of compromises before and if so how did you do it?
Thanks,
I realize I'm late to the party and I hope there's a hopeful update.

I think there's a huge difference between the things you describe and...IDK being a lying sociopath willing to murder people for money while also embarrassing the church. Mark Hoffman misled a lot of people including his wife. It seems like a perception checking statement could be helpful, "It sounds like you are afraid that my differences in belief from you mean that I am actually a sociopath. I want you to know that as always, I value you, our family, and that the nuances of my belief are a product of a healthy desire to pursue truth. I believe God, being my parent understands my journey and I feel the spirit when I seek more knowledge and the path that is right for me. Mark Hoffman was seeking money and power. I can understand why it makes you feel uncertain, but it also hurts me to think you would put my attempt to be intellectually and spiritually honest with myself on the same level as someone being willing to hurt people and take advantage of them for money."

However, the brainwashing runs deep and there's also the chance she won't be able to reconcile the church's teachings of all in or nothing with your desire to be true to your own conscience. In some marriages that can't be saved. I will say in my own, my Spouseman came around and now sees the issues clearly.

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Hagoth
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 30, 2021 6:45 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 4:16 pm
I think there's a huge difference between the things you describe and...IDK being a lying sociopath willing to murder people for money while also embarrassing the church. Mark Hoffman misled a lot of people including his wife. It seems like a perception checking statement could be helpful, "It sounds like you are afraid that my differences in belief from you mean that I am actually a sociopath. I want you to know that as always, I value you, our family, and that the nuances of my belief are a product of a healthy desire to pursue truth. I believe God, being my parent understands my journey and I feel the spirit when I seek more knowledge and the path that is right for me. Mark Hoffman was seeking money and power. I can understand why it makes you feel uncertain, but it also hurts me to think you would put my attempt to be intellectually and spiritually honest with myself on the same level as someone being willing to hurt people and take advantage of them for money."
Excellent response!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:48 pm

Seems like you have a lot of tension, but also some dialog, which is good. One thing that helped my situation was to focus on the love and support part for my still believing spouse. Over time I was able to show her that I was still the same loving guys she had fallen in love with, decoupled from the beliefs. That gave her a safe place to land if she ever decided to really question the whole thing, which she eventually did and found her way out.

I was out to prove that better and real happiness and prosperity exists outside of the dogma. I had proved it to myself; during my crisis I had experimented with removing all gods and devils from my life for a few months, see how it changed things. But for my wife I think it was nature that helped the most. The kids were older and adulting more and more so my wife and I started to have more weekends to ourselves for getting out together and adventuring. When we did this over 1-2 Sundays each month over a year, she began to see how much happier she was. Less fretting and dreading going to church Sunday, how much less stressed she was for work on Monday morning, etc. The values began to shift as we found a more joy in nature than sitting in another boring and unfulfilling meeting. Reducing guilt and fear was a big help. She eventually started recommending we take a Sunday off and get out for some fun.

Ultimately it was trust that helped my wife exit the church, trust in me and our love, that it really could continue and thrive without all the religious BS. As I tried to focus more on the positive parts of your marriage and relationship I also tried to keep the church out of it or maybe mention if it was getting in the way. So an increase or double down on the good husband, father, lover part and seeking activities that provide real "spiritual nourishment"; this was way more fulfilling than being in a church. Do some road trips, show your wife the Milky Way on a moonless night out in the desert. If she's open to it, you might also look into plant based supplements like psilocybin fungus; I've seen therapeutic sessions with active members and mushrooms start to wake them up and change their minds about God and mormons. Highly recommend Pollan's book "How to Change Your Mind".

I avoided bringing up topics I knew would upset her, but would carefully, honestly and sincerely discuss those topics if asked. I would always carefully empathize and support her complaints about the church when she brought it up, like the misogamy.

My the FSM bless your endeavors!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

stuck
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by stuck » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:00 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:55 pm
stuck wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:23 am
Has anyone been successful at making these types of compromises before and if so how did you do it?
Sorry I'm late to the party. I am in a mixed faith marriage that seems to be going very well. Like Corsair said, long game, but we have definitely moved beyond the horizon. I enjoy Coffee drinking in plain sight and normal, human underwear. And open discussion of things both faith-promoting and faith-challenging.

Unfortunately, I have an advantage that most do not. My wife was an adult convert to the church from a non-Christian family. She never bought into the indoctrination that people are good or bad based on whether or not they believe in angels with gold plates, because her family are very good people.

The latest surprise: Murder Among the Mormons piqued my wife's curiosity and she sought out and listened to the Mormon Stories Sandra Tanner interview with no nudging by me. Oh the times they are a' changin'.

My point is that miracles can happen, even if they happen slowly and don't involve special underwear and magical priesthood powers. Like the hands on a clock; a very slow clock that's been dipped in tar.

I doubt my wife will ever get to where I am but that's perfectly fine as long as we can maintain a fulcrum on which to balance.
Hagoth,

Thanks for your response and it was nice meeting you at lunch the other day. Hearing about your experience with magic mushrooms was interesting too. I wonder if WW Phelps was under its influence when he wrote the Spirit of God right?

Anyhow, another thing about my wife is that she believes in "miracles" and so that is another thing that keeps her in. Like recently I gave her a priesthood blessing to get rid of her headache because she had tried about everything else and wasn't getting better and wouldn't you know it, it got better. This has happened before not long ago. I explained it's probably her belief in it that it works perhaps like some type of placebo. Would that be your take on it? That might be something new to post, what do you think?

stuck
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by stuck » Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:13 am

Thanks for your response Thoughtful. We do best if we don't discuss the church so we haven't discussed things much since then. But I like your perception checking statement. Although I am kind of agnostic now. However, I do value my wife and family and want to keep our family together if possible. I also value doing good things vs. evil.

stuck
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by stuck » Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:19 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:48 pm
Seems like you have a lot of tension, but also some dialog, which is good. One thing that helped my situation was to focus on the love and support part for my still believing spouse. Over time I was able to show her that I was still the same loving guys she had fallen in love with, decoupled from the beliefs. That gave her a safe place to land if she ever decided to really question the whole thing, which she eventually did and found her way out.

I was out to prove that better and real happiness and prosperity exists outside of the dogma. I had proved it to myself; during my crisis I had experimented with removing all gods and devils from my life for a few months, see how it changed things. But for my wife I think it was nature that helped the most. The kids were older and adulting more and more so my wife and I started to have more weekends to ourselves for getting out together and adventuring. When we did this over 1-2 Sundays each month over a year, she began to see how much happier she was. Less fretting and dreading going to church Sunday, how much less stressed she was for work on Monday morning, etc. The values began to shift as we found a more joy in nature than sitting in another boring and unfulfilling meeting. Reducing guilt and fear was a big help. She eventually started recommending we take a Sunday off and get out for some fun.

Ultimately it was trust that helped my wife exit the church, trust in me and our love, that it really could continue and thrive without all the religious BS. As I tried to focus more on the positive parts of your marriage and relationship I also tried to keep the church out of it or maybe mention if it was getting in the way. So an increase or double down on the good husband, father, lover part and seeking activities that provide real "spiritual nourishment"; this was way more fulfilling than being in a church. Do some road trips, show your wife the Milky Way on a moonless night out in the desert. If she's open to it, you might also look into plant based supplements like psilocybin fungus; I've seen therapeutic sessions with active members and mushrooms start to wake them up and change their minds about God and mormons. Highly recommend Pollan's book "How to Change Your Mind".

I avoided bringing up topics I knew would upset her, but would carefully, honestly and sincerely discuss those topics if asked. I would always carefully empathize and support her complaints about the church when she brought it up, like the misogamy.

My the FSM bless your endeavors!
Thanks for your response RH. How were you able to stop going to church and so forth initially without freaking your wife out?

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:48 am

stuck wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:19 am
Thanks for your response RH. How were you able to stop going to church and so forth initially without freaking your wife out?
I'd still go with her. I had a stake calling that allowed me to skip a lot of ward meetings and stay off most of their assignments. The key to getting DW to attend less over time was to take weekend trips together out to the Utah wilderness. She began to value those more and more over any church attendance and it played into her shelf breaking.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

stuck
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Re: Beware of Murder Among the Mormons!

Post by stuck » Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:22 am

RH,

I think I will try that approach. We will be getting an suv that can tow a popup or small trailer so I hope to do more of getting out into nature.

Have you and your wife both resigned now?

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