Told DW Why I Don’t Have the Desire to Attend Temple

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
Post Reply
User avatar
Deepthinker
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:40 pm

Told DW Why I Don’t Have the Desire to Attend Temple

Post by Deepthinker » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:17 am

Doing some returning of gifts this week with DW and she said we should go to the temple this week. I said I would go with her, but would rather do something else. She then asked me “why don’t you want to go to the temple?”

I was able to just tell her calmly that I had looked at Masonry and found that Joseph Smith had used elements of Masonic rituals in the temple endowment. That he had become a master Mason and several weeks later implemented the endowment, using some of these same rituals he had learned as a Mason. That learning this just points towards Joseph Smith being a fraud to me. This was the first time I’d ever talked to her about the connection between the temple and Masonry. She listened, she took it in.

Most importantly, she didn’t get upset. She just started talking about how our Bishop or someone else in the church would react if I said that to them. We talked about how shocked they would be to hear something like that from me and we laughed about it. It was almost as though DW was recognizing her first reactions when I would say something like this to her over the last few years.

I’d say this was a good sign.

User avatar
MrsGeorgeMiller
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Told DW Why I Don’t Have the Desire to Attend Temple

Post by MrsGeorgeMiller » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:22 pm

It does sounds like a good sign. I hope the two of you continue to find laughter during these changing times. :)

On a side note, I've come full circle on Smith's inclusion on masonry. While I spent many years in the fraud camp, I am now of the opinion that Smith had a deep love of masonry as well as Christianity, and I believe he found the divine in both. While I do think he did his fair share of swindling, I think he honestly believed in what he was doing and acted as a mystic would, seeking visions and believing sparks of inspiration as some kind of divine decree. He felt a pull towards masonry and the rituals it contained, and I genuinely think he believed that there was something powerful and divinely inspired in them. His contemporaries would have been well versed in masonic myth, ritual, and symbolism, so I also believe that the building of the theology on a masonic foundation would have been much more transparent to the early Mormons than it is to us today. The 19th century context is no longer there, so the temple ritual and BOM has an air of completely independent origins nowadays. To the 19th century Mormon, and to the few contemporary masons, the incorporation of masonic ideologies would have been rather apparent, so to me this is less fraud-like and more like a sophomoric attempt at creating a divine ritual.

Like many rituals, masonic ritual can be quite profound and be a very spiritual mirror in which one can view the alchemy of one's soul. I think Smith's use of masonry in Mormonism was more of a homage to a belief system he loved so well, a building of a eternal ritual on the framework of a mortal one. One of the problems with mystics is that they are easily led to believe their own experiences as a higher truth. It is also one of the strengths of the mystic, to see a proud lesson about the mysteries of the universe in one personal experience. When he did swindle others, he was also swindling himself. I think he truly believed in what he was seeing in his visions and feeling in his prayer, which makes him both sublimely inspirational as well as frighteningly dangerous depending on how you look at it. He was a complex fellow.

I just thought I'd drop this in there. My own thoughts on Smith have changed and changed again. I'm not an apologist. I'm a historian. When I look at the data, what I see is a guy who made a lot of shady decisions based on what he thought were divine messages from above. This is where faith comes in. Either you believe he was inspired or you don't. I think he thought he was inspired, which for me explains a lot. It doesn't help reconcile his choices for me, but it does soften the idea that he was motivated by nefarious means. I think he thought he was doing the right thing most of the time, which makes his record of events a bit easier to digest, for me anyway.
"It is the greatest honor in life to bear witness to the breadth and depth of the human spirit." ~ Me

"Some people are rods, and some people are liahonas." ~ Unknown

"Not all those who wander are lost." ~ Old Saying

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7075
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Told DW Why I Don’t Have the Desire to Attend Temple

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:16 am

MrsGeorgeMiller wrote:I think Smith's use of masonry in Mormonism was more of a homage to a belief system he loved so well, a building of a eternal ritual on the framework of a mortal one.
I'm sure the masonic nature of the endowment was not shocking to the early saints because they saw it as a reforestation of the true masonry that was practiced in the Temple of Solomon. They didn't need the kind of apologetic explanations that modern members do, now that we know the masonic rites aren't ancient. I think a bigger challenge today is explaining why the temple ceremony was so much more masonic before the 1990 changes. If God set it up correctly by revelation, why would he let them change it just because some people were uncomfortable with it?

I also agree with MrsGM that Joseph probably believed a lot of what he said. He spoke of a constant flood of revelation that was passing through his mind that he was trying to capture. We have all had experiences where creativity flows through us and feels like it comes from an outside source. Some experience that to a much higher degree than others. I think Joseph probably believed that some of the thoughts that popped into his head must have been revelation, and as a bonus, they often served his own specific needs. What is harder to explain are things like the bank scandal (did he really believe his revelation that his bank would succeed and all others fail, so his cups and balls game was a temporary band -aid hat wouldn't matter in the end?) and his rewriting of revelations to elevate his own importance (e.g. adding the Peter James and John confirmation of the priesthood). It's in those kinds of circumstances that I have a hard time not seeing hints of a conman at work.

But back to the temple. My wife knows about the masonic stuff, she knows I don't believe it, but she still loves the temple and it's an important spiritual refuge for her, not so much for the proxy work, but as a sanctuary and a place where strangers will pray for people you care about just because you wrote their name on a list. She really wants me to keep a recommend and attend with her a couple of times a year even though she knows I don't buy any of it. And, to be honest, I don't mind. It's a nice place to sit for a couple of hours. It brings me a lot less grief now than when I was always stressed about whether or not I was worthy to be in God's House, when I actually believed Satan's threat that I would end up in his power if I slipped up. Now I have to suppress a chuckle at that part.

I certainly wouldn't go to the temple without her; I do it because it genuinely makes her happy and that's what matters to me. I guess I'll continue to sit through session or do sealings a couple of times a year until leadership roulette puts an end to it (possibly this year).
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
Newme
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:43 pm

Re: Told DW Why I Don’t Have the Desire to Attend Temple

Post by Newme » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:54 pm

I'm glad for you.
It seems that little by little you and your wife are coming to be more on the same page.

Freemasonry is a can of worms - full of all kinds of strange history and conspiracy theories. Their rituals never sat well with me - even the 1st time I attended. It was a real stretch (mental gymnastics) to try to somehow equate it to Christ and God.

For me, the temples, as beautiful as they are, represent an exclusive club that requires payment to attend - while the collectors of those payments steal money from the poor. So sad because the temple used to symbolize to me all that was good. I realize for many, they still see temples in that perspective, and I try to keep in mind that their heart's in the right place - even if they're missing the mark in some ways.

User avatar
redjay
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:20 pm

Re: Told DW Why I Don’t Have the Desire to Attend Temple

Post by redjay » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:44 am

FWIW I really enjoyed the Masonry and Mormonism episodes on the Mormon Expression Podcast - for all six of them to classed as in the top 25 of the hundreds of John Larsen podcasts indicates how fascinating they are.

I still teeter between JS as conman, pious fraud and great religious thinker.

There are lots of principles of mormonism that I like: progression, redemption, a refutation of the burny bad place etc. As opposed to the puritanism, devil double earings, prosperity gospel BS, absolutism (vs moderation).
At the halfway home. I'm a full-grown man. But I'm not afraid to cry.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests