NOM

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:38 pm

When people leave, it naturally opens up other behavioral options they may have not previously considered. Most people, anyway. Very very few leave so they can participate in the other behavioral options without being encumbered with guilt or whatever, but the vast majority who leave do so through great consternation and emotional pain. It's like they don't really want to leave but they just can't stay. They no longer believe because the evidence is overwhelming.

Hopefully my wife will get to the point where she can't believe any longer because of how much evidence there is against it.

Angel wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:20 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 04, 2023 10:20 am

Members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" make up 0.2126% of the human population.

How can anyone think that only 0.2126% of the human population are "good people"?

So true wtfluff. Most charity is done through organizations such as Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, Doctors Without Borders, UNICEF, Habitat for Humanity, Rotary International, The Salvation Army, Oxfam, AmeriCares - sooo many amazing ppl out there. When bashing starts, change the subject to inspiring stories of groups and individual people who are making a real difference in the world.

Both great points WTFluff and Angel!

Emower wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:00 am

I know of many good people, including me. If you want to show your wife that there are good people who have left the church, show her yourself. That's the most important person that she and your children will see every day. Don't lie about stuff. If you are embarrassed about drinking coffee, hold off until you are ready to do it without embarrassment. If open marriages make you uncomfortable, let her know that that is not an option for you and don't go swinging.

Hagoth's point about Mormon morality is spot on in that it is so upside down in many many people's eyes. The best way to combat that is by just being the best husband and father you can be while living your authentic self.

That's really good advice. Thanks Emower!

stuck wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:11 pm

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:38 pm

When people leave, it naturally opens up other behavioral options they may have not previously considered. Most people, anyway. Very very few leave so they can participate in the other behavioral options without being encumbered with guilt or whatever, but the vast majority who leave do so through great consternation and emotional pain. It's like they don't really want to leave but they just can't stay. They no longer believe because the evidence is overwhelming.

Hopefully my wife will get to the point where she can't believe any longer because of how much evidence there is against it.

I don’t think most women leave based on evidence or doctrinal reasons. Or even historical reasons. However, emotional pain is just as relevant as any of those.

What causes emotional pain within the church?

Patriarchy!!

Point out to your wife this overlooked observation.

If all of the WOMEN were to leave the church today…
The church WILL CONTINUE to exist because the priesthood and leadership are all contained within the male species.

if all the MEN were to leave the church today…
The church WILL NOT CONTINUE to exist because the priesthood and leadership will have left!

That’s a HUGE GAP to overcome.

Stuck, if you want to nudge your wife to the edge you have to point out the patriarchy differences. Don’t bury her in doctrinal, historical, or evidence hodge podge.

Women stay in the church because they are emotionally connected. It feels good to take the kids. It feels good to see friends and family. The songs and the talks all make you feel good.

Pointing out the Patriarchy, the Polygamy, and the Priesthood. Those things don’t feel good. They suck. And women who see the problems with those 3 P’s….

They get mad. Then annoyed. Then angry.

Then they can see the history, the changing doctrines, the evidence.

That’s how the dominoes start to fall.

I highly recommend the At Last She Said It podcast. Listen to it yourself first then go and get eve to partake.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:31 pm

stuck wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:11 pm

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:38 pm

When people leave, it naturally opens up other behavioral options they may have not previously considered. Most people, anyway. Very very few leave so they can participate in the other behavioral options without being encumbered with guilt or whatever, but the vast majority who leave do so through great consternation and emotional pain. It's like they don't really want to leave but they just can't stay. They no longer believe because the evidence is overwhelming.

Hopefully my wife will get to the point where she can't believe any longer because of how much evidence there is against it.

I don’t think most women leave based on evidence or doctrinal reasons. Or even historical reasons. However, emotional pain is just as relevant as any of those.

What causes emotional pain within the church?

Patriarchy!!

Point out to your wife this overlooked observation.

If all of the WOMEN were to leave the church today…
The church WILL CONTINUE to exist because the priesthood and leadership are all contained within the male species.

if all the MEN were to leave the church today…
The church WILL NOT CONTINUE to exist because the priesthood and leadership will have left!

That’s a HUGE GAP to overcome.

Stuck, if you want to nudge your wife to the edge you have to point out the patriarchy differences. Don’t bury her in doctrinal, historical, or evidence hodge podge.

Women stay in the church because they are emotionally connected. It feels good to take the kids. It feels good to see friends and family. The songs and the talks all make you feel good.

Pointing out the Patriarchy, the Polygamy, and the Priesthood. Those things don’t feel good. They suck. And women who see the problems with those 3 P’s….

They get mad. Then annoyed. Then angry.

Then they can see the history, the changing doctrines, the evidence.

That’s how the dominoes start to fall.

I highly recommend the At Last She Said It podcast. Listen to it yourself first then go and get eve to partake.

Could be. Possible. This patriarchy cry though became a bigass victimization wave. Like most things, centered and stable self-care is good, but that victim stuff lost the point. Kate Kelly and many others tried to brand it, that didn't work out.

Being a victim is real. Being hurt is real. No question. And a lot happened to make people not pay attention to the real stuff because of distractions.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 08, 2023 7:36 am

- Started getting dw and the kids out into nature more, trying to use some weekends to steal them away from church for more fulfilling activities
- About a year later dw and her kids found their own way out, happy wife happy life!

In summary, my method was to live my life with no more devils or angels, but also more effort on good spouse and dad behavior. Try to be genuine but also increase the love and activities that provide for the non-lds spiritual growth; I find nature is one of the best tools for that. Try to avoid activities and behavior that puts you in their "See what happens when you leave the good ship zion!" poster. Try not to be a poster child for the lds corporate marketing machine.

Rubin,

Good advice, I'm going to see if I can get the fam out into nature more, especially on weekends or Sundays.

Linked wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:13 pm

You've mentioned morality shifting, and it should when your foundational beliefs shift. But ideally you will be getting more moral, or at least you will be more authentically moral. Morality in the church is following the rules given by the church. That's a very shallow version of morality, and it can lead to very immoral things. Maybe you will drink coffee or even alcohol, but hopefully by developing your own sense of morality you will avoid protecting child predators and defrauding investors.

Good luck with all this, it's a tough road!

Thanks Linked! That's a good point on morality becoming better. I also think that those of us who no longer believe are more free from the dogma that is racist, homophobic, xenophobic, and are probably less judgemental in general towards others who don't fit the good Mormon stereotype.

Gatorbait wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:03 pm

I like this post, liked reading all of your posts as well.

One of these days the church will wake up, realize that coffee's not like snorting coke off a Las Vegas whore's hind end (liked that one) and is harmless.

As one who's pulled a cork or two over the years, not to access, and drank plenty of coffee, I can say this: No one really cares, but they have to act like they do because that's the line of nonsense that they've trapped their selves in.

Good luck on the other, baptizing and the like. All our kids are grown up now and I baptized all of them and my dw was happy about it. She still wears the temple garments but doesn't like church any more than I do, maybe less. Hopefully your dw will come to understand.

Good luck noble one.

Thanks Gatorbait!

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:31 pm

I don’t think most women leave based on evidence or doctrinal reasons. Or even historical reasons. However, emotional pain is just as relevant as any of those.

What causes emotional pain within the church?

Patriarchy!!

Point out to your wife this overlooked observation.

If all of the WOMEN were to leave the church today…
The church WILL CONTINUE to exist because the priesthood and leadership are all contained within the male species.

if all the MEN were to leave the church today…
The church WILL NOT CONTINUE to exist because the priesthood and leadership will have left!

That’s a HUGE GAP to overcome.

Stuck, if you want to nudge your wife to the edge you have to point out the patriarchy differences. Don’t bury her in doctrinal, historical, or evidence hodge podge.

Women stay in the church because they are emotionally connected. It feels good to take the kids. It feels good to see friends and family. The songs and the talks all make you feel good.

Pointing out the Patriarchy, the Polygamy, and the Priesthood. Those things don’t feel good. They suck. And women who see the problems with those 3 P’s….

They get mad. Then annoyed. Then angry.

Then they can see the history, the changing doctrines, the evidence.

That’s how the dominoes start to fall.

I highly recommend the At Last She Said It podcast. Listen to it yourself first then go and get eve to partake.

You are spot on RR. My wife doesn't seem phased by the things that phase us: history/essays/science etc. I think she is bothered by polygamy though. I have listened to one of those episodes of that podcast you recommended. I'll have to listen to more.

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:57 pm

Being a victim is real. Being hurt is real. No question. And a lot happened to make people not pay attention to the real stuff because of distractions.

I've been listening to the Mormon Stories podcast on Joseph Smith and human/sex trafficking. There were probably a lot of victims in that and also with Brigham Young's colonization/polygamy. I am thinking of the pioneers being trafficked for settling different areas. And even those converts who came to Utah. Had they known the truth about polygamy or the church's truth claims they wouldn't have had to go through the trials that they did.

Does anyone know if Brigham Young knew the falsity of the church's truth claims? I suppose he knew of the 1832 version of the first vision?

I agree with RR, that feminist issues make more women leave than historical issues. So, get a copy of In Sacred Loneliness, and leave it lying around. The Ghost of Polygamy is another. Bring up the issues. Get on Exponent II if you need information. Take her to see the Barbie movie, and discuss how it relates to church.

alas wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:31 pm

I agree with RR, that feminist issues make more women leave than historical issues. So, get a copy of In Sacred Loneliness, and leave it lying around. The Ghost of Polygamy is another. Bring up the issues. Get on Exponent II if you need information. Take her to see the Barbie movie, and discuss how it relates to church.

Great ideas! She knows we need to do something though because if we ignore it she gets stressed and anxious. So we just started reading Bridges, a book written for Leadership to help them understand why people leave. I told her it was sort of an apologetic book but was a start. Afterwards hopefully we could read something more like you recommended. Which is better Sacred Loneliness or Ghost of Polygamy?

Thanks

stuck wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:19 am

alas wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:31 pm

I agree with RR, that feminist issues make more women leave than historical issues. So, get a copy of In Sacred Loneliness, and leave it lying around. The Ghost of Polygamy is another. Bring up the issues. Get on Exponent II if you need information. Take her to see the Barbie movie, and discuss how it relates to church.

Great ideas! She knows we need to do something though because if we ignore it she gets stressed and anxious. So we just started reading Bridges, a book written for Leadership to help them understand why people leave. I told her it was sort of an apologetic book but was a start. Afterwards hopefully we could read something more like you recommended. Which is better Sacred Loneliness or Ghost of Polygamy?

Thanks

I have not read Ghosts of Polygamy, but it is Carol Lynn Pearson, so it has to be good. I got as far as my own relatives in Sacred Loneliness, and that was enough. I felt like I knew enough. And as things often happen, life came up and I never got back to it. Books become due at the library and it wasn’t worth renewing. I went to high school with Todd Compton, and he is a brilliant guy. The book is well researched.

And, funny, but there is a series on the Johnson Family (B. F. Johnson who was a close friend to Joseph Smith. I read those books up to the point where Joseph asks Benjamin for permission to marry his sisters, and I couldn’t stand to read more, so I did better tolerating the personal connection in Compton’s book than I did in the series on the Johnson family.

As to which book is better, it is going to depend on your wife. Ghosts of P is about how the remnants of polygamy hurt women in the church today. So, it is women who wrote to Carol telling her, for example, their feelings after marrying a widower, so in the eternities, they are second wife. So, your wife may relate to it more than the history of Joseph’s wives. A lot of women are already fan of Carol Lynn Pearson, so they may jump at that book because they are familiar with her other work. But to me, In Sacred Loneliness shows how polygamy could never have come from a God who loved his daughters. It is really quite an emotion kick in the gut to the church. All told very factually and well researched. But most women are going to be imaging themselves in these stories. He takes each wife, in the order of Joseph’s marriage to them, and tells her story.

I’d start with ghost first.

Ghost of polygamy is shorter and more stories of real women today sharing their experiences.

Sacred loneliness is long and heavy.

This isn't really applicable towards dealing with one's spouse, but it is towards extended family. My wife (full on TBM at the time) and I kept my faith journey a secret from all of her family for four years. We both decided that was better than dealing with the drama-llamas. I wanted to us both to be able to respond to the usual TBM claims of "you've changed" and "the light is gone from your eyes" reactions when they discover that someone has left the church. The ability to turn that right back around on them with a "Wow, really? That's interesting--when did you first notice that change?" response was invaluable. Sure, my beliefs had changed but I was still the same old Hermey with everything else.

Hermey wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:14 am

This isn't really applicable towards dealing with one's spouse, but it is towards extended family. My wife (full on TBM at the time) and I kept my faith journey a secret from all of her family for four years. We both decided that was better than dealing with the drama-llamas. I wanted to us both to be able to respond to the usual TBM claims of "you've changed" and "the light is gone from your eyes" reactions when they discover that someone has left the church. The ability to turn that right back around on them with a "Wow, really? That's interesting--when did you first notice that change?" response was invaluable. Sure, my beliefs had changed but I was still the same old Hermey with everything else.

I love this.

Since losing my faith I have become more self-confident and sociable. Any light that was in my eyes while I was forcing myself to sit through endless meetings has certainly brightened, if anything, and I think people in my ward cannot help but notice that I am more personable than when I was sitting in church anxiously and compulsively self-judging.

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 04, 2023 10:20 am

stuck wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:38 am

...
but there probably is a shift in morality. Like drinking coffee or drinking alcohol reponsibly and being less strict about movie ratings.
...

There is absolutely nothing "immoral" about the things mentioned in the above sentence/quote.


Maybe you should do some simple math with your spouse:

• According to LD$-Inc.'s last claim at the end of 2022, they have a little over 17,000,000 members.
• According to worldometer there are over 8,000,000,000 humans on the planet.
• 17,000,000 / 8,000,000,000 = 0.002125
• 0.002125 X 100 = 0.2126

Members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" make up 0.2126% of the human population.

How can anyone think that only 0.2126% of the human population are "good people"?

(We won't mention the fact that the majority of the Members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" aren't "active" and don't even consider themselves adherents to the religion.)



(Yes I know that logic (or simple math) won't work when talking to a believer, but I can't help myself: It's literally insane to think that you can't be a good human if you are not MORmON.)

This is extremely helpful to me today. Thanks, fluffy.

stuck wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:11 pm

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:38 pm

When people leave, it naturally opens up other behavioral options they may have not previously considered. Most people, anyway. Very very few leave so they can participate in the other behavioral options without being encumbered with guilt or whatever, but the vast majority who leave do so through great consternation and emotional pain. It's like they don't really want to leave but they just can't stay. They no longer believe because the evidence is overwhelming.

Hopefully my wife will get to the point where she can't believe any longer because of how much evidence there is against it.

She may never see the evidence if she doesn't look for it. In the church we're taught NOT to doubt, but to doubt our doubts. We become fearful of information that is contrary to our set beliefs. The belief bias effect and confirmation bias are rampant. We're taught that the adversary is actively trying to lead us astray. We argue that we're not a cult of course we're not a cult. But,... um, doubt your doubts? We're told what to believe, where to find our information, what to read, what to eat, what to wear... kinda culty. I've heard many members doubt science, doubt the data. But for crap's sake, this is our world now. what is truth anymore? Who the hell cares about truth? If I spout my opinion long and loud enough, people might start treating it as truth. I've never seen such a polemic political climate and when there is chaos, what do Mormons do? Signs of the times, circle the wagons, entrench!

So yeah, the evidence is out there easy to find, but that doesn't mean anyone will want to know badly enough to seek it, or even believe it if they do find it. Fortunately, much of the data that starts to lead folks away is church published stuff. Church sources. Yet fortunately for the church, a lot of members are lazy or too damned busy with church work that they don't have the time or energy to look.

It's easier to just stay in the rat cage. It's true, of course it's true. We're growing like crazy! Look, we're building all these temples. We can't keep up. If it wasn't true all these people wouldn't be joining and we wouldn't be building all those temples, and besides all these church leaders are really smart guys. They have studied it all out and they still believe, so it's gotta be true. Of course it's true. I feel it in my heart. It feels better to think it's true and when I think maybe it's not I get a scary feeling which tells me to stay away from that thought. Run away from those doubts.



Just in case anyone hasn't read my posts enough to know me, that was satirical.

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:44 pm

Look, we're building all these temples. We can't keep up.

Well, that part is true, we can't keep up with RMN's manic rate of temple announcements. We just don't need them. Insiders have said that temples more than pay for themselves because they put pressure on local members to get recommends and get caught up on their tithing. There has to be some market saturation tipping point where the density of temples in wealthy places like the US no longer has the desired effect or, for poorer nations, the people just can't give enough to recoup the costs via tithing.

My half-sarcastic prediction is that the tabernacle of Moses idea will return in the form of tent temples that can be set up quickly and cheaply and moved around as needed to inspire local populations to dig deep to give up their last mite. "Brothers and Sisters, we will be honored to have the temple in our very own neighborhood here in Ghana for the entire month of April. That gives us plenty of time to get our lives and tithing donations in order to be worthy to enter the Tent of the Lord."