Lying

[stuck]

Recently met up with an exmo friend and he suggested reading Lying by Sam Harris. He made some interesting points like it's best to avoid lying and I suppose cheating (adultery) to preserve your marriage and the marriage of the other person involved. It's sort of like following the golden rule when we don't lie. He also said that religions are often times not very honest and you can certainly say that of Mormonism right?!

The difficulty I find in a mixed faith marriage is that I want to do certain things now that I didn't really want to do as a believing member--such as try alcohol or watch r rated movies. And if I do those things then I know my wife would not be happy so do I tell her? Is it best to avoid these things to prevent guilt and at some point perhaps having to confess to my wife; or to tell my wife that I would like to try alcohol and see if she would be ok with it (in my case most likely not)?

Also I'm going to have to tell her that I've stopped paying tithing and why.

Thought? Suggestions?

[wtfluff]

Thought? Suggestions?

You could always introduce your wife to Carefully Worded Denials™. I mean, if that sort of lying is OK for Joseph Smith, and you follow Joe's example, everything will be fine, eh?







DISCLAIMER: The above sarcastic sentence is NOT good relationship advice. In fact it is REALLY BAD relationship advice.

[alas]

[putting on my counseling hat] your situation may be different, but what the marriage experts recommend is to talk it over with your spouse rather than do something behind their back. The conversation might go something like, “what would you think if I tried an alcoholic drink when we go out to dinner?” Then you have an honest conversation about why you want to, the limits, and so forth. But allow your spouse to say how they would honestly feel without arguing or judging their feelings. Sometimes feelings can be irrational, but they are still real. This way you find out ahead of time if drinking might be a deal breaker. You don’t want to confess to having an occasional beer with the guys only to find out that your wife had some really bad experiences with an alcoholic relative and drinking is grounds for divorce in their opinion, or that she feels it is a slippery slope to worse behavior and she cannot forgive both the drinking and the deception.

Betraying trust is hard on marriage. Lying and any kind of deception is one of the most destructive things a spouse can do. And you will eventually get caught. Don’t kid yourself that she/he will never know. You don’t want to lose trust. So, best to talk it over before hand. Once you know if spouse will be mildly irritated, rather than devastated, you can weigh the option of doing it even if they disapprove.

Most of the time with these kinds of change of religion things, they are afraid of the slippery slope, so reassuring them about how far this is going to go is all they need. They might want to have the option of you trying it and if they hate it too much, that they can veto such behavior. Or if they see you changing in ways they hate, they can reevaluate. Such as you watching R movies and you start swearing like a drunk sailor, they can say that they don’t like the side effects. Or you go from one drink when dining out, to coming home late half drunk. They need to know that your desired change can be controlled and has limits.

[RubinHighlander]

I think it depends on your TBM spouse. After I had broke the news to my DW that I was struggling and the dust settled from that cogdis, months later I disclosed to my DW that I was having a beer with friends at lunch once in a while. That caused her more cogdis and she told me she didn't want to know. Over time it all resolved out as she found her own way out, but it did create some angst. I think where I doubled down on being a good spouse and kept towing the line going to church, she became less concerned over it over time.

So being too honest could create unwanted stress and angst, I was okay to keep a lot of other things in the closet while we were a mixed faith couple (like the stash of MJ I had out in the garage that I would indulge in on the weekends). Now DW loves MJ more than I do, it's like her real god that brings her actual joy, happiness and peach (not patterned after the old one we used to worship).

The way I saw it at the time we were both raised and indoctrinated into a cult that had been dishonest with us about it's truth claims and it had taken away from us so much time, money and emotion; not too mention all the messed up mental issues around sex and family relationships. I was trying to get MY life back a little at a time and live more authentically. But when your other half is still stuck in there, the best way to help them out or support them and keep loving them...no formula or method fits all. I think there's some things I would do a bit differently with a do over, but in the end, love and time conquered all for me and mine.

[stuck]

Thought? Suggestions?

You could always introduce your wife to Carefully Worded Denials™. I mean, if that sort of lying is OK for Joseph Smith, and you follow Joe's example, everything will be fine, eh?


DISCLAIMER: The above sarcastic sentence is NOT good relationship advice. In fact it is REALLY BAD relationship advice.

It makes you wonder if that's why Emma wanted him to return for trial? I can't really blame her for evil intent though because I don't know what she was thinking.

[stuck]

[putting on my counseling hat] your situation may be different, but what the marriage experts recommend is to talk it over with your spouse rather than do something behind their back. The conversation might go something like, “what would you think if I tried an alcoholic drink when we go out to dinner?” Then you have an honest conversation about why you want to, the limits, and so forth. But allow your spouse to say how they would honestly feel without arguing or judging their feelings. Sometimes feelings can be irrational, but they are still real. This way you find out ahead of time if drinking might be a deal breaker. You don’t want to confess to having an occasional beer with the guys only to find out that your wife had some really bad experiences with an alcoholic relative and drinking is grounds for divorce in their opinion, or that she feels it is a slippery slope to worse behavior and she cannot forgive both the drinking and the deception.

Betraying trust is hard on marriage. Lying and any kind of deception is one of the most destructive things a spouse can do. And you will eventually get caught. Don’t kid yourself that she/he will never know. You don’t want to lose trust. So, best to talk it over before hand. Once you know if spouse will be mildly irritated, rather than devastated, you can weigh the option of doing it even if they disapprove.

Most of the time with these kinds of change of religion things, they are afraid of the slippery slope, so reassuring them about how far this is going to go is all they need. They might want to have the option of you trying it and if they hate it too much, that they can veto such behavior. Or if they see you changing in ways they hate, they can reevaluate. Such as you watching R movies and you start swearing like a drunk sailor, they can say that they don’t like the side effects. Or you go from one drink when dining out, to coming home late half drunk. They need to know that your desired change can be controlled and has limits.

This is really good advice Alas, thank you.

[stuck]

I think it depends on your TBM spouse. After I had broke the news to my DW that I was struggling and the dust settled from that cogdis, months later I disclosed to my DW that I was having a beer with friends at lunch once in a while. That caused her more cogdis and she told me she didn't want to know. Over time it all resolved out as she found her own way out, but it did create some angst. I think where I doubled down on being a good spouse and kept towing the line going to church, she became less concerned over it over time.

Yeah I think my wife would be upset so perhaps it's better to try to approach it like Alas said. But that's great that you are both out now and enjoying life.

[Linked]

I 100% relate to your situation stuck. I lied to my wife about my beliefs, then she found in an email from someone else and it crushed her. I lied to my wife by not telling her that I drink coffee until she confronted me about it and it crushed her.

In my mind, the idea of telling her about those things felt like lining a hammer up right over my thumb and trying to intentionally smash it. I just couldn't do it. Eventually the smashing happened, but it was even worse because it included lying where I didn't come clean until I was found out.

It's a struggle to not agree on what is good or bad with your spouse.

If you can find a way to do it, I recommend you bring up that you are interested in coffee, alcohol, not paying tithing, etc. Get it on the table and let her respond. If she initially reacts very negatively, it may be something to stay away from, or it may be that she needs time to come to grips with it. But that timer doesn't start until you bring it up.

And per usual follow Alas' great advice.

[Cnsl1]

Not to take away from Alas's sound advice, but if you want to do something bad enough you will do it, and deal with the consequences.

You want to try beer but don't want to do it behind her back. So you bring it up, she recoils. She asks you never to do it. You don't. Is your marriage really better? It's just a different problem.

I'm not suggesting you lie. I'm suggesting that if you're thinking about it there's already a problem. You can't communicate honestly and she can't tolerate deviations from her projected ideal.

All of a sudden it's not about beer anymore.

[stuck]

I 100% relate to your situation stuck. I lied to my wife about my beliefs, then she found in an email from someone else and it crushed her. I lied to my wife by not telling her that I drink coffee until she confronted me about it and it crushed her.

In my mind, the idea of telling her about those things felt like lining a hammer up right over my thumb and trying to intentionally smash it. I just couldn't do it. Eventually the smashing happened, but it was even worse because it included lying where I didn't come clean until I was found out.

How's it going now that she knows about it?

[stuck]

Not to take away from Alas's sound advice, but if you want to do something bad enough you will do it, and deal with the consequences.

You want to try beer but don't want to do it behind her back. So you bring it up, she recoils. She asks you never to do it. You don't. Is your marriage really better? It's just a different problem.

I'm not suggesting you lie. I'm suggesting that if you're thinking about it there's already a problem. You can't communicate honestly and she can't tolerate deviations from her projected ideal.

All of a sudden it's not about beer anymore.

Yeah I agree and yet I think it's better for me to avoid these things to save the marriage. I am thinking of talking with the bishop about it to see if it's ok to drink coffee and perhaps try alcohol and still be able to baptize my son. Because the handbook says that it should be ok unless there is unresolved serious sins. I wouldn't consider trying alcohol or drinking coffee serious sins right? And probably not even watching an r rated movie once in awhile.

[alas]

Not to take away from Alas's sound advice, but if you want to do something bad enough you will do it, and deal with the consequences.

You want to try beer but don't want to do it behind her back. So you bring it up, she recoils. She asks you never to do it. You don't. Is your marriage really better? It's just a different problem.

I'm not suggesting you lie. I'm suggesting that if you're thinking about it there's already a problem. You can't communicate honestly and she can't tolerate deviations from her projected ideal.

All of a sudden it's not about beer anymore.

This is a good point, if you want to do it badly enough, then her saying it would cause divorce, just might be a deal breaker for you. We have had people on NOM who badly badly want to (fill in the blank) and the spouse says no way. So, they cave, and resent it, and the resentment grows because they see the spouse as unfairly demanding that they never change. And they are correct. It is unfair of a spouse to forbid. Period. That kind of controlling behavior is ….well, it is controlling. And nobody likes being in a controlling relationship. In a way, it is abusive. Because trying to control your spouse against their will is emotional abuse. So, if she cannot tolerate deviations from her ideal Mr. Peter Priesthood, and you are not willing to be Mr Peter Priesthood, then it is time to ask each other if it is time to let the relationship go.

There are spouses who attend church, temple recommend, calling, the works and do it to support their spouse. They don’t mind and if it makes the spouse happy, then they are happy to do it even if they would never choose it for themselves. There are others who just can’t.

So, in these discussions, you have to know what you really can do as for as being physically in, and what you just are not willing to do. Both of you understanding that things may change. And your spouse has to know if they are honestly unwilling to let go of the “happy Mormon family” image, or if they really need a spouse that believes as they do.

The church really puts a lot of pressure on the young women to marry a good priesthood holder in the temple. They push this as if living without it is living without oxygen. So, most women who married the good priesthood guy in the temple feel cheated when he says he doesn’t want to be Mr Priesthood any longer. So, she may react very badly to the suggestions at first. But most women come around to the fact that they love their spouse more than they love the idea of Mr. Priesthood.

Some can’t.

This is why at NOM we recommend taking things slow. So you can give each other time to adjust.

[Linked]

I 100% relate to your situation stuck. I lied to my wife about my beliefs, then she found in an email from someone else and it crushed her. I lied to my wife by not telling her that I drink coffee until she confronted me about it and it crushed her.

In my mind, the idea of telling her about those things felt like lining a hammer up right over my thumb and trying to intentionally smash it. I just couldn't do it. Eventually the smashing happened, but it was even worse because it included lying where I didn't come clean until I was found out.

How's it going now that she knows about it?

Things are pretty good now. She knows that I drink coffee regularly and while she isn't a fan of it she hasn't left me. She won't tolerate coffee at home, but when we are out of town for a weekend together I'll have some in the morning and it doesn't ruin our trip.

But it was a terrible few months and then a crappy year before getting to pretty good. And who knows how things would be if she had never felt betrayed and lied to?

[Red Ryder]

Yeah I agree and yet I think it's better for me to avoid these things to save the marriage. I am thinking of talking with the bishop about it to see if it's ok to drink coffee and perhaps try alcohol and still be able to baptize my son. Because the handbook says that it should be ok unless there is unresolved serious sins. I wouldn't consider trying alcohol or drinking coffee serious sins right? And probably not even watching an r rated movie once in awhile.

Why give the bishop any power and authority over you? You’re going to ask him if he thinks it’s ok to break church rules and still participate in church ordinances? How do you think that conversation is going to go?

Just assume it’s your right as a father to baptize your kid and do it. The bishop holds no power over you regardless of what non-illegal things you choose to partake of.

I agree with alas. Just have an open conversation. Just don’t make any promises because when you can’t keep them it leads to further disappointment and resentment. Examples such as I won’t ever drink.

Here’s a great At Last She Said It podcast that I think will help you.

Episode 143: Get Used to Disappointment | A Conversation with Dr. Julie Hanks

https://atlastshesaidit.org/episode-143 ... lie-hanks/